NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

Oki this is now 3rd one iv run across in as many weeks running Nos kits Now not going to get into whats best or why but this is 1st time ive seen road test data listed and woundered what where your views , this system was proffesionally fitted and tested

Bike is XJR1300 peak tourqe about 6500 rpm and red line 9500 fitted with a Nos kit and 60bhp jets DP set up

this is what was posted

with out noz, 1/08/2009 dyno run HP 129.8, RPM 8097
with out noz, 6/01/2010 dyno run, with DYNO 2000 Ignition HP138.1 RPM 8598
with noz button push at 5000rpm to 8414 rpm, HP199.8

Road test no point at all pushing the button in 1st or 2nd gear!!!!!! as it just hit 2 hard
3rd gear between 3000-4500 push button front wheel lift ( right up very fast) and slight wheel spin and had to back off.
3rd gear between 4500-5000 push button no wheel spin, front wheel lift 6-8 incs(controllable)8500-9000rpm flik shifter 4th wheel still floating 8500-9000rpm, flik shift 5th front floats for a bit, then comes down.
tops out at 150-155mph, this will be more when I put the 18 front sprocket on, and will also stop the front lifting so much., and may be able to use noz in 2nd.
5th gear 3500-4000rpm push the button take off good and sharp, front will lift 6-8incs very controllable comes down 5500-6000 then on to peak spot 8500rpm. hit the button at 100mph it dose lift :giggle:
we only had 600psi in the bottle, it was cold, but in the summer or if i put a bottle warmer on( the hotter the better) get the pressure up to 900-950psi this will give it sharper hit get more noz in and more bhp, should add 15-20bhp.
THE SHIFTER full electric system, works through all gears :thumbs: slow speed up and down. it works best over 3000rpm.
1st-2nd flat out will work. as long as the front is not in the air to much strain on the coggs the weight keeps the gears to tight/meshed in.
through 2nd to 5th flat out with or with out noz front wheel up or down, really smooth, down is the same. It has 3 speed/settings for the shifter I found for me it works better on 3, this is the quickest setting

OKI well ya all shy lol

what im getting at is not if it work or not as they clearly do , and forget about wear isues lean hits ect ect and all the other reason why we fit WON

Why would anyone set up a bike that from the above data will basicly be unusable and borderline un safe any tuners out there is this really what your customers ask you to do sorry i just dont get it

X2

I had a similar BIZZARE situation when I first started selling my Duo-noids.
People using NOS kits would wreck their engines when a solenoid failed, which was frequently.
When my Duo-noid failed (rarely) it just didn't work and NOTHING got damaged.

Now my UNcommon sense told me I was on a winner with the above being the case BUT the great British racers preferred to run the high risk of blowing their engines to bits, because whilst on the way to blowing the engine, the US kit did actually make them run quicker (for a short period of time), whereas mine did NOTHING.

The same ILLOGICAL thinking is at work with what you've discovered/reported above, some people would rather experience the INSANE BRUTE power from a NOS kit, that they can't use safely or effectively MOST OF THE TIME, just to feel that BRUTE FORCE, regardless of the fact that any sane and intelligent guy realises that it's the WRONG WAY to deliver power, especially on a bike.

What they fail to realise (excluding the OBVIOUS performance advantages) is;
1) They could get the same result from a WON kit if they insisted on being so stupid
2) Whilst a HARD HIT can be fun, the growing surge of power from a progressive WON system is even more fun and it can be enjoyed for longer.
3) They could also have the hard hit (albeit it a little softer), along with the control for the times they come to their senses, if they'd fitted a WON system
4) It would all work out much cheaper in the long run and MUCH MORE FUN WITH WON

As our Yorkshire saying goes, "There's nowt so queer as folk".

No idea , i just dont get it Now oki its a bit of mental fun but if ya ever wanted to go progresive and use the power you just added to ya headaces 10 fold , you would not set up a drag bike like that where aim is to go faster

These are street bikes most will never see track even with my WON kit that delivers the power smoothly add too much power to quickly and you very quickly find the limits of what you sitting on LOL and an XJR anit no sports bike its how i found 100bhp if about limit of bike not engin

And now spend most of my time trying to use more power lower down , trying to work out best settings to go faster

Im sure given a bit of time and some fittings i could replicate these wheelie machines but for life of me i cant find a single reason where this type of set up would be of any use either road or track , not to mention surley you could if ya stoped and thought about it wacking a stock motor with big short sharp bangs cant be any good for it

Well it will be interesting for me to see how all these bikess run over coming year and i may see a few of them at track :-) that would be fun as they all runing stock engins

LOL but its made me decide on 1 thing and reinforce my core thinking [b]control is everything [/b]and time to save pennys and change mini max to a Max Street altho that may be next years job

Ride safe lads

If you ever get the chance to run up against one or more of those bikes Tezz, I'll cover your costs to go and do it (assuming you're not at an event already when it happens), as we both know what the outcome will be of you and WON against them & NOS (or any other US brand) and it would be nice to SHOW THEM how stupid they were to buy US brand nitrous kits.

I bet they paid much more for that shit as well.

Thanks for offer Trev but my only mission this year is to sort out me shifter and fine tune that and just have some fun and get some time in at track , and i dout very much if them bikes will see track as you know a quick blip now and then on button or a test on dyno is no where as extreem as a flat out Track run bikes can have an ok tune on road or dyno put it at max on track thats whole diff story, PS any news on MINI MAX upgrade as this is one of my biggest problems now tayloring start power

And Yes lots of money was spent , New Dyna 2000 ignition , (funny the Tuner recomended keeping stock coils and leads) New clutch pack (already had barnet 6 spring conversion recently) a lot of dyno time , Nos kit , Pro fitting , full race electric shifter, service and well ya get idea , and they said the tuner did 3 full road test and plug chops Not easy task on XJR as it a tank off job so sound like Lots of time spent on setting up


Another bike still same as mine i recently come across had 2 cut outs put in his petrol tank one each side to fit in 2 reccessed 2lb polished bottles , custom brackets , respray of tanK ect Looked great , Down side is the are dead horizontal with dip tubes and valves facing rear Its not been tested yet but no idea if that will work or what problems the mount will kick up Not like ya can move them they molded into tank , I did not see install till it was completed or i would have explaind

Making progress (albeit it slowly) on the ALL NEW Minimax software/hardware and even considering an ALL NEW fascia to go with it.

It's looking like the new software will be OK in existing Minimax units for Pulsoid use but we're having to design an all new circuit for the minimax to be suitable for driving REVO units, so anyone who wants to take the Minimax/REVO route will have to do a trade in, rather than just a software upgrade.

We're also making progress on even more new features for the Max Extreme, which will ensure it stays at the front of advancing technology.

BTW can you believe that some US company is IN THE PROCESS OF designing a progressive control unit for PULSING GENERIC SHIT that does NOT even have as many features as the Max currently offers, despite knowing that the REVO technology exists.

I just can't figure out what goes through these peoples minds!?!?!?!?!?

When I heard that an American company had made the first PRODUCTION pulsed progressive unit some 20 years ago, it was OBVIOUS to me that I had to take the same route, to be considered as being up to date with technology, even though I didn't agree with it being the best option (because I'd already invented/designed the core of the REVO system), yet this company and I guess all US nitrous companies that are aware of the REVO by now (as most will be), are still content with being stuck in the Dark Ages.

The FUNNIEST part of it all, is that all these companies produce pretty good electronic packages and then expect such sophisticated output signals from their units to drive agricultural generic solenoids as accurately, which anyone with any real brains would appreciate IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

Not only that but even if the solenoids were able to follow the accurate signals accurately, the rest of the conventional US kit arrangement works against pulsed technology anyway, so there's 2 levels of problems to deal with and yet NOBODY BOTHERS!!!

Rather than design;
1) A solenoid that is SUITABLE to be pulsed
&
2) A system that is SUITABLE to be pulsed

They design a progressive control unit to pulse UNSUITABLE solenoid in a kit that is UNSUITABLE for pulsing!!!!

Where's the fucking sense in that?!?!?!?!?!?!

Trev good news on mini max i think the upgrade to this alone to go with your pulsiod systems as these will still be the core of most street apllication for now will go a long way to making a fantastic base system and set up , i still like my mini max but with just a few more setting that would make it great for street bikes esp when like me ya start to push limits of bike , a simple per gear ramp and 0-100% start power maybe even a 1st gear hold

the Max street is great and adresses all of my issess and almost all of any bike set up but most of the setting i could probley do with out , if i had them then yes would probley mess with them but i like to keep things as simple as possible

The new Minimax features will be as follows;

1) Adjustable NA throttle range to nitrous throttle range setting - that is to say you can pick a point somewhere between zero and 100% throttle movement to activate the nitrous system. Below this point the nitrous system will not activate but above it the system power level will be LINKED to throttle position.

2) Adjustable power settings between the chosen activation point up to full throttle. That is to say that if 80% was the activation point, you could set 81% to deliver 20% of nitrous power and gradually build up to 99% to deliver say 40% of nitrous power for example.

3) At 100% throttle movement the system would auto switch to timed power delivery which would continue from the setting chosen at 99% and rise to whatever full power setting over whatever time was required.

4) If at any time the throttle was backed off, the power would stop being time linked and switch back to throttle linked, so if you rolled off to say 90% throttle you'd still have say 30% of nitrous power but if you rolled off to say 81% you'd only have 20% nitrous and below 80% the system would hold.

5) If you then came back on the throttle, the nitrous power would once again be throttle linked until 100% open and then the timed power rise would continue where it left off.

This range of features has been SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for Cecil Towner for his Real street bikes and we feel that it will address the problems riders of bikes in most street classes have, when the nitrous causes a wheelie and they have to back off the throttle to gain control.

If anyone feels there are other bike specific problems that this range of features doesn't address, then I'd be happy to hear them and consider them for addition to the above features.

This range of features will also soon be an addition (rather than a replacement as in the case of the Minimax), to the Max Extreme range.

These features were mainly based on the REVO system, where the 81% figure given in the example above could be set as low as 1% to give very fine control but as our pulsed systems have a very smooth transition and as the NA power will be lower at 80% throttle than 100% throttle, we still think these features will give much greater rider control over a nitrous bike.

My only concern is how many riders have adequately fine enough throttle control to put a rider controlled (rather than purely time controlled) system to best use but only time will give us the answer to that question.

All input as always welcomed.

I bet not many people out there have that level of throttle control and all seams as you said just geared to fix a wheelie on serious race bike , the TPS link/ramp sounds cool would you need this in a retail basic controler ? most people pin the throttle or shut it off

sounds like you will end up building a RACE Max in a MINI Max box i think the mini max is perfect for a basic controler but a few tweeks and keep it price low makes sence

for Bike a race max in a mini max box also makes a lot of sence due to the size of mini max and if ya can afford revos would pay extra ,box but mixing the 2, basic controler with all the race functions would mean more expensive entry level controler and defeat part of the reason for the mini max

Me i was thinking just the addition of a simple per gear ramp where you could set start and max power for each gear

so 1st gear 0-20 % 2nd 20 to 40 , 3rd 40 to 80 , 4th 100% 5th 100 or what ever ya set it at

Or Just being able to drop start power below 30% would be cool and max power setting to also be ajustable not just 100% that way could leave ya big bhp race jets in but drop max power down a bit and longer build for softer street tune , a very simple start stop via TPS input would be a great addition

Just my thinking

I have one small concern... don't the drag racing rules state that nitrous must only be operated/activated at FULL throttle?

Otherwise I think it's great.My extra options would be ability to set max power at less than 100%(not sure if that's in there already) then a panic/boost button for when that little bit extra(more than you programmed) will get you the win.

I reckon the throttle control option is brilliant,even if to satisfy the rules a progressive throttle assembly was reqd( I believe we spoke about this before).Will the minimax be able to display the relative nitrous/throttle %? Could then mount it front and center..If not how about a row of LEDs to indicate nitrous throttle position?
I'm sure that it would become quite natural after a while,just a case of dialling in what power the track will take.

Cant wait to try it.

Hi all, been a while since ive been on but seems things are moving along nicely.....
Just a couple of points

Yes most (even fast road riders) have that level of throttle control, even 10 year old rocket ships require that level of input for riders to be able to stay alive on wet roads!!
As a racer, one of the hardest things is overiding the basic desire to shut the throttle slightly in order to keep it nailed. For those that have never riden purpose built race bikes, even on a street format (68" wheelbase), those wheelies are a bloody long way up in comparison owing to length of the bike, but you really have to ride them out wherever possible.
The ability to link nitrous output with throttle is a sound idea, as it means you can actually ride it more like a road bike without the issues of coming back on the gas. I remember when Trev first mentioned this to me on the phone, was a sound idea then and still is now


Yes Tezz, people do demand bikes like that, i have seen and even built or been involved in building all manner of bikes, many i wouldnt entertain riding. What the customer wants the customer generally gets. From a business perspective, its the way it has to be or you wouldnt be a business for very long. From a personal point of view a 60bhp shot is not a very large single hit at all, Ive ridden many a gsxr with 60 or even 75 on a button, the only difference being, a gsxr copes better than an xjr, Try putting some decent suspension on an xjr and you may end up with a very usable package, as being a tourer they are WAY TOO SOFT.
But then, where is the difference in someone who wants a bike that wheelies at the drop of a hat to the point its unrideable and one that would rather spend ever increasing amounts of money on electronics rather than accept the way forward to going faster is to uprate the chassis/suspension package to harness the power already there?
Steve

Well im not sure wheelie machine was asked for as they already changing sprockets to try and keep wheel down , still will be intereting to see how it gose and for how long

As for XJR agreed it was soft which is why mine ended up with brand new Ohlins From Harriss with stronger springs and not the crap Yamaha fit , brace ARM , custom front yokes and FZR USD lowered and damped , flat bars, soft tyers

Quite what else i can do and keep it a road bike im not sure , few straps maybe , cant lower it as it already scrapes pegs on deck on road longer arm maybe that will soon become a pain in arse around london or keep feking around with chains ect

Mind you learning to ride it word be a good start

Tezz

Thanks for tips Steve always much appricated

The rear tyer im still yet to find a balance , must say when i droped psi to 20 it took me by suppries how hard it griped so many things yet to try i have a 41 tooth on rear got a new 38 as well , i like the 41 off gas maybe a simpler option will be to get an 18 for race day instead of the 17 and swap out front

On early xjr swing arms 2001 modles theres a fair bit of flex in engineering terms these bikes have almost remained same from mid 80s and early XJs, on later bikes yamaha added some bracing plates from cross member to rails to fix this , but as i changed swing arm braced it and fitted new shox with all new bearings hard to say which bit made most difference , but theres still a fair bit of flex in frame at pivot bolt , i considered bracing main frame but was unsure if by fixing that flex i may then just stress or move the stress to a weaker part of frame . and i do get fair bit squat even with harder springs but any harder and im feked on road

will look at straps but as i ride to track only what fits under me seat comes with me , the USDs have lowered me front about 40mm from stock and flat bars are alot lower than stock and have shifted me weight over front

I guess as it is a road bike theres a point where you are at limit, just need to get me air shifter working and try and leave bike alone for a season and build up some data, lol i still giggle when i race such a buzz, yes 100 shot well on my bike anyway needs a degree of respect

This is a pic of me at pod of a 11.0 sec run as you can see hardley a racing pose and still had me high bars and mirrors on lol and was runing full road 42 psi in rear

Hi mate
A picture tells a thousand words. Now look at your pic and you'll see whats going on. The forks are on full extension under acceleration, now look at the angle of the engine... The bike is setting up for a nice big wheely. Fork extension and rear squat are the main culprits here. Pull down straps would certainly solve this, and they're a cheap fix. Bout £15 on the market will see you on your way to some low 10 action i reckon.



Ignore the fact that this is a race bike, but if you look at how the bike is sitting under full throttle off the line you'll get the idea of what im on about.
Now if you were to use 4 short or 1 long and 2 short straps you can minimise the squat on the rear and fork extension on front. On the front leave about an inch of travel and somewhere between 2-3 inch on the rear. Make the rear too hard and she wont hook up cleanly. I would also start at road tyre pressures untill wheelspin becomes an issue then drop pressure 2 psi at a time till she just hooks up. I wouldnt go overboard on burnouts either, in fact to start i wouldnt bother at all, its not like you're throwing 400 ponies at it off the line.
Get ya airshifter working asap, this will give you several tenths to start with and unsettles the bike far less. It will also mean you can make some low rear pegs which will help with launch and help get ya forward more

Steve

Thanks never really looked at pic that way before but yes can clearly see forks almost all way out and even then wheels just on deck and rear tyers flat on road psi and you so right its set for a wheelie even on an up shift as ramp was building would lift wheel , i usally ride around the box as i like to keep tread for the ride home , plus the bike boys dont like me to leave water to line

The airshifter hoping to have completed in a few weeks if electrical parts arrive and will see if i can fine tune it to shift from 1st to 2nd , will also kill nitrous on shifts hopefully this should make it all a bit smoother and stop the kicking back in of Gas , It lifted wheel on a 4th to 5th up shift before at over 100 mph on just a 60 mill sec kill with out killing the nitrous , lol i would say Awsome but in reality an experiance i would like to aviod

But even if i leave swing arm alone , i now have a few thing to try straps rear sets ect

Theres is nice big V where my rear spindle fits and ajusters for chain maybe i could talk to an engineer and get some extensions made up milled to fit there and bolted thro extension and existing holes , something to think about

Looking at them race bikes seams hell of a lot of slack in chain on longer arms why is that ? and is it safe ? could they not fit some sort of spring loaded wheel in lower middle of chain bit like a belt tensioner

Tezz

Thats all quite normal, in fact its exactly as your bike will be doing too, just because of the length its more exaggerated. Measured it up the other day and that swingarm is 10" over stock, so if you imagine your swingarm moving up 2" mine moves nearer 4" for the same shock compression.

In all honesty, i would say either extend the arm and leave it that way for road or leave it stock. This is purely because its not just the length thats altered. To keep the ride height down you will need different tie bars and you would need a much harder shock. To give you an idea, the bike pictured id running an ohlins shock, which has had the damping uprated by 50% and is also equiped with an 1150lb spring!! An awfull lot of messin around swappin bits over an back again. You would either need to find a happy medium or just accept that its mainly used on the road and will always have that limiting factor. Although i have seen bikes ridden in to the bulldog run low nines with a pretty short arm so it is do-able, just not easy. Whether it can be done on an xjr i wouldnt like to say.....

Funnily enough, i progressed to owning a second bike that got more and more drag orientated, next comes the van/bike trailer and before ya know it, you gone got an ACU licence and its competition time!! Then you'll want to go even quicker and quicker and then some, and you'll never have any money ever again, you'll live in your workshop fettlin/fixing, ya missus will leave ya, you'll forget about kids birthdays, xmas etc, and all just for 7 seconds of insanity!! There is a God!!!! lolol

yes and there lies the the problem how far do you go , it always was and has to remain a road bike which was one of the biggest reasons for picking Nitrous in 1st place , the real problem is that i never expected Just how much Nitrous this stock engin would take, LOL Dont tell TREV but he did and ya just know he will say i told ya so and very quickly got to limit of rest of bike and just how much of a buzz it is , LOL and i know from feel of bike it will take more Nitrous , if i know enought to tune engin that well is another story , im sure i dont have anywhere near enought skill to use any more , im getting along on luck as it is

apart from my riding skill which i know fall well short of whats needed , lol any anyone thats thinking OH its just riding in a straight line give it a go !!!!, the nitrous system is not yet match to gears and way bike seam to want the power as i just have a fixed ramp on the mini max and i think Next year when i find a 2nd hand Max should fix that and buy that time im hopeing to have some more track time in

Thanks for info on swing arms for now i think ill leave that well alone as im fairly happy with way bike is on road

Given me lots to think about Thanks now all we need is summer LOL

Respect


Tezz

Tie downs Tezz! easy to fit em at the track,no effect on road use.A bit of thought involved in the bracketry to make them easy fit,then they'll take you a long way down the road you'll need a short sidestand if you go really low.

Once you've run out of movement on the suspension or legal ground clearance then you can look at a longer swingarm.

I used tiedowns on the beemer to good effect.On the rear I just had a strap around the shock,strangely that worked better than the shortened shock I tried next.The strap stopped the shock from stretching under shaft torque,with the short shock it allowed the shaft to jack up the rear end and light the tyre up! took me too bloody long to realise what was going on couldn't work out why my speedo said 135mph and the t ticket only 105,3 passes on the trot guess where my speedo pick up is?