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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:46 am 
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Dave,

I appreciate the complexities of racing top bikes. We now run two blown nitro scooters, but had a turbo funny bike before that. Nitrous ain't much different from nitro in the sense that one little variable gets away from you and boom!

Unfortunately, I too will be missing the final round down under to save dime dollars for next season. Had a nitrous bike win a round this season, put my fuel scooter to shame - can't have that now....

Sam

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:24 am 
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xclr82xtc wrote:
Noswizard wrote:
if you haven't seen the following video clip on the new REVO page of my website, then you should enjoy this and it's my hope that dave will be able to start the year with at least one as quick as this and end the year a good 0.3 to 0.5 quicker. :twisted:

http://www.noswizard.com/admin1/videos/ ... %20Pod.wmv



judging by the way it sounded..i think you guys need some lower gear on the top end. just my opinion, but some lower gear will def help turn that big ole tire over..
There was 2 reasons why it sounded that way on that run;
1) It was too rich and lost power
2) It is way over geared for the current power levels but Dave likes it that way as it'll be ready for the big numbers when he gets it all together.

Personally I wish he'd use lower gearing as he would have already run a much quicker time, because it certainly isn't to his advantage as it is now.



how is the program coming so far??? engine, nos setup etc??
Just waiting for a suitable track day, which over here in the UK are fewer and further between nowadays. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:20 pm 
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gearing: I want to sort out the launch settings on the gearing I'm going to use, not on something I'm not. The steps forward are then easier and greater. I'm not a pot hunter, I just want to go quick :)

I'm planning on testing this Sunday at the Pod - if there are any places left... starting carefully and then seeing what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:25 pm 
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Best of luck testing dave hope all gose to plan in sunday

Tezz


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:31 pm 
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Its a T&T day this Sunday isnt it Dave!!!

I might see if I can get over for a look see. I have to deliver a car to Stevenage so I may be able to Pod it on the way back for a few hours without the missus catching on :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:04 pm 
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Best of luck Dave and I'll be with you in spirit all day and try to be there in person next meeting if all goes well. :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:36 pm 
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ill be honest, ive found it more productive to tune the bike for 1 setup...and leave it there till you get as fast as possible. ...this is just my opinion, and im not tryin to tell you what to do..BUTTTT....if it was my bike, and i new i was going to be testing on lower power levels, i would match the entire gearing, suspension, launch..etc to match that a power level and work up from there.

i put the "right" gear in my bike, and couldn't ever run the number, changed it up, and yes it was even slower but it gave me an even better baseline to work from. now, im right back to the correct gearing, but the bike is 3 tenths quicker..



just sayin.


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:21 pm 
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As with most things there are pros and cons to every option.

I'd forgotten that was Dave's reason for sticking to excessively tall gearing for the current power level but now he's reminded me I accept it has its merits but given how hard its been to make progress and how long it takes to get there, personally I'd drop the gearing for at least one event and see how she goes. However, it is Dave's bike and I support him with his choice because there is no clear cut right or wrong in this matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Any updates Dave how did testing go , when the 1st race


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:51 am 
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Latest updates;

Dave melted his engine BIG TIME on his very first run of the year.

I'm not going to deal with the causes or apportion blame, because the truth of the matter is we don't know for certain why it happened but I do know that with a bit more thought 'we' (Dave & I) could have prevented it if the AFR window switch had been set to more appropriate levels.

We're in the process of trying figure out the cause of the problem by carrying out a variety of tests and analysis but because we can set up the REVO mixture better by using a static test program (which we haven't been able to do since we fitted the nitrous discharge tubes), we're going to temporarily replace those with Crossfires.

Dave has replaced the damaged engine parts with whatever he had left over, so now he only has an odds and sods engine at his disposal, which means we can only 'hope' its adequate for the job. :cry:

He'll be testing again in a couple of weeks so we're wishing him better luck this time out.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:59 am 
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Sorry to hear the bad news Dave, if i could help in anyway i would, but seein as i run a completely different engine to you, ive got nothing to help you with.
Hopefully see you out there doing it at the summer nationals

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:10 am 
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On a more technical note Trev, doesnt the x-fire deliver in such a substantially different way to require different settings anyway? I only ask because i remember a post from Nige a while back, saying his jetting spread was way out when he switched from x-fires to discharge tubes.
Just as a rough guide, what sort of AFR window would someone running similar power levels be looking for? Am guessing 10-11:1 would be a good starting point?

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Dave best of luck with next testing session for what ever reason it was decied i belive replacing the discharge tubes and venoms with cross fires will provid a good bit of data

will these be before or after carbs ?

And im still curiuos what you think about the discharge tube and venom in bell mouth when using such big shot and you get to reversion or a closed vavle could be seriously effecting or pushing fule back out of way and if this would still happen to same degree if injector was after carb closer to engin ?

I know you said ya lost logs of pulsiod set up but did that get richer as the run progressed ? and on logs from revo do you see the same effect ?

And before anyone jumps on me , i too have no idea what cased this melt down but the fact it happened again on a fresh build on softer setting leads me to belive that other possiblitys or combinations of them need to be explored


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:42 pm 
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suzook12 wrote:
On a more technical note Trev, doesnt the x-fire deliver in such a substantially different way to require different settings anyway?
Yes that's exactly right and one of the reasons I'm not overly keen on the idea but as I stated it does give us the ability to set the mixture 'perfectly' and PRIOR to a run, so that may outweigh the disadvantage of starting over on the style of injection.
It also removes one of the 'potentially' grey areas of knowledge (that are unavoidable when pushing the barriers of the unknown), so that isn't a bad thing when you have so many to contend with.
I personally don't expect there to be a major impact on reliability from making the switch OTHER THAN due to the benefits from the static test and hopefully that will be all we need to get us back on track.
The cause of the melt down could be any number of things (we are investigating all those that can be investigated) but what is annoying is that the AFR window switch would have saved us this melt down, if only we'd set it at the appropriate level and if Dave wasn't such an honest guy we could have gone a stage further and used the AFR closed loop correction feature and not only saved the motor but got down the track in record time - assuming it works as intended.


Just as a rough guide, what sort of AFR window would someone running similar power levels be looking for? Am guessing 10-11:1 would be a good starting point?
If I was starting blind (no static test results), I'd aim to be starting from 10:1 as I know that produces decent results whilst still being overly rich. I'm assured by certain experienced persons that the ultimate performance is achieved at approx. 12.4:1 but I'd only aim for that after I'd achieved NUMEROUS reliable results and could squeeze any more from the motor at 11.5 ish.
Anyone using our AFR window switch blind should start at no higher than 12:1 or better still start at 11 as lean outs can happen so quickly that the system reaction time may only shut the system down by the time the mixture has leaned out by another full point.
:idea:

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:37 am 
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Dave baby steps :-)

i know they cant be publised as cecil flasesh his own ECU ect and use dry systems , but the crued methord of dry is they just add a percentage of fule to injectors in a fixed ratio but i have seen people ajust there ecus per 100 rprm and add or take away fule as needed during the run on the mapping software

Maybe a look at a standard map and a nitrous map would give a better idea as they will be adding fuel via injectors and will have to match this to the Nitrous revo

can you gradulally add more fule as run progresses using the revo and Max or ramp the fule revo quicker , could the unburnt fuel paly (that the wide band wont pick up)as an important part as the burnt fule ?


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:14 pm 
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WOW Dave,I feel for you as i have been in the same situation many times myself and I wish I knew and understood more about bike racing other then Ray Price here in my town who i know and as you may know is one of the pioneers in Nitro Harley racing...Trev has been to his shop where he let us use his shop and lathes and milling machines.. I do love my Harley Low Rider with a turbo..it made 205 and 215 torque which is a BEAR and will shock a Busa for street light to light racing....LOLOL

I wish you all the best and look forward to seeing you improve on what already are amazing times....Plus we share the fact we do it on a shoe string budget...well i sold my shoe strings for parts now i have none... :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Just for the record my bet is on the head/s being beyond 100% successful repair, causing air leaks. :(

One reason for saying that, is that the damage was so quick and so catastrophic, because in my experience even a quite lean mixture in a GOOD engine (that means good head casting, well fitted valve seats, correctly fitted valves, correctly set valve clearances, correctly sealed head gasket, good pistons, bores and correct rings/gaps), takes half the track to show the first signs of failure but in this last case it was all over within 2 secs (approx.) and that was on a relatively small shot on what should have been a safe mixture setting.

Dave's just completed some flow tests and we'll be analysing those on Tuesday.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Well to have that much destruction I have found in the past it usally comes from something broke or not working..its hard to melt on a already known system usally unless something is broken....

I saw a motor melt at the 330' on a old car with a known good engine and it was a falied fuel pump.....I miss 1/4 mile racing but 1/8 mile is less expensive but as seen you can still make a nice motor rubbish when things fail and you dont have the proper fail safes installed and working correctly....

Be intresting what you and dave come up with Trev....

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:17 pm 
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The first step is to set the AFR window switch much lower. :yes:

That way any future 'issue/s' won't be terminal or as costly.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:41 pm 
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Looks like we've found the cause of the failure.

Dave has just calculated that he was putting in MUCH more than he realised and as a consequence was running too much advance. :(

That's one of the reasons I've not been in a rush to release the REVO systems, because unlike a fixed jet system they demand every ounce of your attention to every detail and the slightest oversight can lead to a major failure.

The actual main cause of this failure is the longggggggggggggg time between opportunities to run/race, because with such a new concept we all (my team & Dave) need frequent and closely timed repeat practices of the entire process, to get it all sunk in to a level where we operate all the functions by auto pilot. Without the opportunity to gain that experience, each time the bike is used its like starting over again but we haven't been fully appreciating that's the case and so vital procedures are overlooked.

For example, when we first started with this project I had Dave fit metering jets to limit the power and ensure the full flow mixture stayed correct and as we ramped up the power the jets were increased. However, when Dave started over again for this year, it was overlooked that these jets would be much bigger than the REVO level he INTENDED to run (a max of 150 HP), so that safegaurd was missing when the Max/REVO settings ended up higher than expected. :cry:

For the record the REVO mixture was far too rich (in theory as intended) and the results of his first static tests CONFIRM THAT CONCLUSIVELY as the engine died almost the instant the system was activated at just 20%.

Dave has since been able to adjust the mix to achieve a much better response, with the revs rising to just short of the red line, which in the current situation is PERFECT.
All he needs to do now is repeat the static tests at 20% increments and check/tune accordingly and we should be good to go now that he has the power toned down and the CORRECT restrictor jets fitted. :yes:

BTW his first comment after realising how much power he'd been adding was;
"bloody hell! no wonder it held the front wheel up until it died" :omgrofl: :omgrofl:

All I can say is rather you than me Dave, because although I'd love to experience that amount of acceleration, I can't imagine the fear of doing it on ONE wheel, even though I've raced some very quick bikes (at the time) in my younger days.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:22 am 
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Best of luck with ya testing on friday Dave and hope you get to race in the summer nationals if i can ill Try and pop up to say Hi

Tezz


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:13 pm 
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Hey Tezz, if ya make it pop over for a cuppa, SB313

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:04 pm 
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suzook12 wrote:
Hey Tezz, if ya make it pop over for a cuppa, SB313


Will Do Steve , depends if iv got kids or not wont know till weds , if i dont make it have a great weekend , Sticky side down lads :yes: :yes:

Tezz


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:42 pm 
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No worries mate, my kids comin over Saturday..... Should be a good un. Have new fuel to try (sunoco max nos) and some different spark plugs to come, so hopefully thats the end of the issues and we can look for our first breakout!! :yes: :yes:

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:42 pm 
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suzook12 wrote:
No worries mate, my kids comin over Saturday..... Should be a good un. Have new fuel to try (sunoco max nos) and some different spark plugs to come, so hopefully thats the end of the issues and we can look for our first breakout!! :yes: :yes:

Steve



cool i cant find thread did you solve you dist problems on fuel side on Bike steve


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