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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:13 pm 
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Hi mate, yeah distribution was spot on. Had troubles with the regulator, so binned that and jetting is ok, still on safe side. We were still suffering det probs tho and it swapped cylinders, so am hoping the higher octane fuel and colder plug (jr10b's) will solve the issues. The fuel we were running was F1 fuels SP110, which works fi ne NA, but seems that theres several ways of rating octane, so thinking 110 is by the highest reading method. The sunoco we will be trying is designed specifically for running nitrous and rated at 119 octane, so this should be more than adequate. The fact that we were getting issues REGARDLESS of where timing was set makes me think it is the fuel thats at issue, coz we were setting it so retarded that it was making no difference hardly and still pinging plug straps. Time will undoubtedly tell if I'm right. I'm still not entirely happy with the fueling set-up, but unable to afford any changes at yet. The fact we're still racing at this point is a miracle in itself lol, and can only thank my sponsor (Scooters and Bikes Anglia LTD) and friends, because thats the only reason im still racing this year...... :yes:
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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:16 pm 
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cool if John webster is at track weekend have a chat about this

http://www.webster-race-engineering.co.uk/powerpour.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Hey Guys glad no major damage done by the det. I wont tell you I understand your motors but I do yknow fuels and understanding more and more everyday about them and there complexity...

You cant run a fuel made for other classes and it not octane related as much as the fuel vaporisation and the boil points as well the additive pakages they put in them for that class of racing....

Guys I run one fuel on nitrous and gas and that fuel the the Sunoco NOS Supreme 118...Now they make a Supreme 118 but its the additives pakages they put in them that helps slow the burn rate of the fuel....the problems are with gasoline there are over 400 differant properties...

Myself I will run nothing but ethanol from now on and not E-85 either...I want one atom so to speak of that burns the same....some might say why not methanol...well the handiling issues and needing 3 times the amount compared to only 30% with ethanol...not near as corosive as mathanol....you dont have to change pumps....but thats me...

I guess i am trying to say run a N2O fuel.....plus get fuel thats made by the company who sells it. Alot of the fuel companys are resellers so look into it... VP is a good fuel but run what they suggest.....I can go into alot more but wont bore you with it....This of course is just the mind of a crazy american..... :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:07 pm 
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Hey Johnny
Ive spent a little time looking in to fuels, no where to the lengths you have but just to get a handle on it. Thats the reason for the change, its the new sunoco we're trying. VP is ok but so damned expensive here. £150 for under 20 litres!!! Thats C16. Maxnos runs out a lot cheaper for 25litres, and we can get it straight from Anglo American, so should be good :yes:
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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:27 pm 
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I feel for you all having to have everything shipped in...Look into ethanol..surley someone there is selling 190 proof somewhere there... :D :D the best thing is after the race you can drink the same thing your racer does.... :yes:

Goos Luck....Do you know where its det. at on the pass?

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Dave's using VP Import Johnny, so any comments about that?

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:48 pm 
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Sure I will but Trev,VP ? if you can give me the fuel type...C-16 C-25 etc..... I can let you know whats happening then buddy....

Have you all ever thought of ethonal? I mean straight ,no E-85...the only way unless you make it is as E-98 which is just denatuerd by adding 2% by volume with usally methanol here in the states so you dont drink it or more importantly the government doesnt get you for bootlegging....or they dont get to TAX the hell out of it....lol

What I found with E-85 is good but you still have the effects we are trying to get away from and that is all the compounds made for petrol and there burn rates..also later I didnt know and the experts..lol didnt tell me is that mixing e-98 with leaded fuel tends to cause detonation...so you need to mix it with unleaded for the best results but getting highend unleaded fuel still isnt as hig a octane as leaded racing fuel...plus the not knowing the burn speed and the true effects of it when you mix it yourself such as i did. I mixed it with the Sunoco NOS Supreme and had no problems but to be honest I didnt lean on it either as we had so many other issues...The petrol is ment to really just act as a firing agent to help ease the start of the burn alot like a either on a cold morning to very cold engine....

Single blend fuel is the best such as ethanol or methanol and many others but those 2 are the best to use and the only issue is water...Buy it new like race fuel and this is important also once you open a sealed container it should be put into other sealed containers and keep cool and dry..Leaded racing fuel will seperate very quickily when its in a hot area or in dierect sunlight..alot of times I have seen the lead seperate from the fuel and its a bronze copper looking at the bottom of your jugs...this can also lead to serious engine damage...

I have seen even new fuel cause damage on nitrous engine from being a bad load.....mostly this was from blenders...people who buy fuels and use additive packages and make and brand there own....Sorry for going on but just a bit of history and also what i have seen for facts....

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Last edited by Racer704 on Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:40 pm 
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One last thing,i know VP is a blender but they are at the top of the list ...but once again it depends on which fuel your using and using it for....

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:46 am 
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OK I am a DUMB ASS :beatstick: :beatstick:

Thank you Adam it didnt hit me till later then i decided to reread and it still took 4 times to see it and hear what you said.....I saw import not in capitol letters and thinking and ASSuming that Trev was meaning it was imported...DA!!! i knew VP made a Import fuel but did read this right so i took VP as a genral term...SORRY to all....

give me a bit to look over the fuel and get 1 foot out of my ass and the other out of my mouth!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:14 am 
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VP ImportTM – For all-out ultimate performance when fuel rules permit use of oxygenates. Maximum power and torque in small displacement, high RPM, all motor, turbocharged or nitrous sport compact applications. Makes 5% more power than C16 and similar non-oxygenated fuels. Works well in high temperature induction systems. May require enriching fuel mixture more than C16 would require. Used by top Sport Compact teams, including Titan Motorsports and others.

OK here we go, i wont tell you all that I see but the 1st thing that stands out in the above paragraph from VP's sight is " Works well in high temperature induction systems"

OK i have given you the clue i will leave to you all including Trev to research this fuel learn what it properties are and where it is giving you problems at.....

One thing for sure if you nitrous only you dont have a HIGH TEMP induction system..... Lets see how many people see what I saw reading the specs on the fuel....remember I read things backwards and i am also ADHD so you shouldnt have any problems seeing what I belive is causing you some issues..

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:03 pm 
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That certainly wont help and as you're suggesting, it is likely to be a major problem even though they advise it for nitrous use, which actually indicates they don't really know what they are talking about. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:01 pm 
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For some reason i cant get the spec link to work on the VP site. But am guessing from the general description, as you suggest, that this fuel wont take kindly to the cooling effects of nitrous, and would be better suited for a turbo application where inlet temps are higher?
I did find a forum where they were discussing C16 vs Q16 vs Import, and each of them were speaking turbo related. So again am guessing Dave would probably be better off switching to C16 and dropping some timing, and use less fuel also, (and C16 is cheaper!!) or switching to a bespoke nitrous fuel?
Like many aspects of nitrous technology, with fuels, the further you go in to it, the harder it seems to find a definitive answer, maybe it deserves a section on this forum all to its self lol.
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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:51 pm 
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NO Dave would be better suited to switching to NOS as its made for nitrous use. Everyone of VP's fuels say for nitrous almost if you look at the sugestions from them.the problem is to many people look at octane and think that is the only criterior for nitrous..LOL Just another area where people have no idea of whats happening....

Try again to download the spec sheet and though there isnt much there there is alot...look at it and see what infor there giving and think....C and Q is ok...but look closer and look at the values of the NOS or is it N2O VP.....

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Property/
Typical Values SB
100 MS
101 MS
103
C10 MS
109
Q16
C16
C23
NO2 VP Import
Test Method
Spec Gravity @ 60ْ F .746 .800 .743 .763 .722 .716 .735 .709 .699 .744 ASTM D 4052
Motor Octane 96 99 99 96 101 116 117 120+ 120+ 120+ ASTM D 2700-86
R+M/2 100 101 103 100 105 120+ 117 120+ 120+ 120+
Research Octane 104 103 107 104 109 120+ 117 120+ 120+ 120+
Reid Vapor Pressure 6.80 5.29 2.86 1.90 6.17 6.76 1.85 4.54 1.71 3.70 ASTM D 323
Distillation Fْ ISO 33405
10% Evap. 148.0 168.0 190.0 212.0 147.0 141.0 211.5 172.2 204.3 178.9
50% Evap. 210.0 229.6 210.4 224.0 167.8 174.0 213.1 207.6 205.2 218.2
90% Evap. 216.0 282.0 217.1 266.0 213.3 214.5 215.8 211.4 207.1 323.2
E.P. 238.0 374.4 225.7 281.0 263.8 260.2 233.3 230.2 211.3 350.9
Leaded No No No No No Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes ASTM D 3237
Oxygenated Yes Yes Yes No Yes Yes No No No Yes Elem Analysis
Color (O = Orange) O Yellow Red Clear Clear Yellow Blue Blue Clear Clear

To store these fuels, keep them in a tightly sealed container. Do not expose the fuel to direct sunlight as the ultraviolet rays will oxidize the lead. (VP produces a variety of Motorsport Containers and gasoline containers, each of which is suitable for storage and transportation of fuel.

Here you go read above and look it all over please...its all there and if wasnt look at before this is the a problem...its only the past few years fo being away from it all with no stress of racing i see things so much clearer and having used so many diffderant fuels and mixes over 30 years and alot of them with nitrous I understand it much better and understand combustion which is a joke as we all know 2/3 of the power is lost and only a 1/3 is to the rear tires or Tire..lol

Once again even they fuel companys dont relly understand nitrous and whats happening though they are trying when you look at that VP specs above not too bad on the N2O fuel...I like it alot but the only problem once again is the burn rate and not knowing that with so many additives

Remember also ocatne isnt the end all for det. problems and even VP staes it in a round about way as rich conditions can cause problems as well and make it look lean and detonate as well...I know this goes agaisnt the grain here...but what i am saying is no differant then what Trev is trying to get accross about his products and beat down on the US boards and no disrespect is ment...

Can I ask what Daves dynamic and static compression ratios are?

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:54 pm 
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Sorry about the graph as it somehow made the fuel go down instead of accross and above the pecs for the fuel...


it seems to be a problem with the format in word,the tech bulliten is in a word only format...

i am sorry but as I said print it out lay the fuel product thats going down accross over the specs or just count the main thing is look at the Import and then the N2O fuel specs which are the last 2 to the right..the last is import and left of it is N2O.....

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Well looking at that, apart from the evaporation temps being significantly different, like opposite ends of the scale, the reid vapour pressure is also significantly different. Now not entirely sure what that is, but am guessing its something along the lines of thats the most pressure you can assert on the vapour before it begins reforming into liquid?
Owing to the nature of nitrous apps, the EP would be crucial owing to the cooling effect, and also owing to pre combustion pressures in comparison to FI apps, being lower, the reid pressure part would be less significant.?
The fact that import is also oxygenated would'nt be ideal either, whereas the N2O isnt. Also Comparing to the N2O, C16 has properties very similar so for smaller shots where the higher octane isnt required would be a cheaper solution.
As you say, the burn rates arent mentioned so theres no comparison there, which would also make a significant difference. I would be interested in the burn rates between C16 and N20.

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:31 pm 
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DESCRIPTION
SUNOCO MaxNOS leaded racing gasoline is formulated from high octane blend stocks
and selected additives. It has a substantially increased protection against detonation
compared to normal ‘pump’ fuel under NOS cycles. Its fast burning properties, high octane
and dense properties makes the SUNOCO MaxNOS an excellent choice in highly stressed
and/or high revving NOS equipped race engines.
The manufacturing process of this fuel is designed to provide a fuel that is 100%
repeatable and that will perform the same batch after batch. Every batch is tested to
meet SUNOCO’s stringent quality control procedures to allow precise engine tuning for
maximum performance.
SUNOCO MaxNOS burns extremely cleanly and therefore leaves little or no deposits,
allowing maximum engine power for the duration of the engine life. The high quality stocks
used in the SUNOCO MaxNOS make the fuel very stable and resistant to gum formation. A
multifunctional additive package provides carburettor and fuel injector detergency and
minimises the formation of intake valve deposits. Antioxidants and corrosion inhibitors
promote stability and longer shelf life.
SUNOCO MaxNOS TYPICAL INSPECTION TESTS
Property Units Method Typical Figure
Density at 15C kg/litre ASTM D4052 0.734
Reid Vapour Pressure (RVP) psi ASTM D323 5.3
Research Octane RON ASTM D2699 119
Motor Octane MON ASTM D2700 113
Lead g/l ASTM D3237 <1.5
Nitrogen % m/m ASTM D3228 Conforms
Peroxides and Nitrooxides ppm ASTM D3703 Conforms
Benzene % volume ASTM D3606 <1
Sulphur mg/kg ISO 8754 <5
Initial Boiling Point ºC ASTM D86 40
10% evaporation ºC ASTM D86 82
50% evaporation ºC ASTM D86 103
90% evaporation ºC ASTM D86 108
Final Boiling Point (FBP) °C ASTM D86 119
Colour Yellow
This is what i hope to be using over the weekend, just thought i'd post the figures up for a comparison and see what you think.
Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Hi Steve,thanks for posting up the Sunoco and it looks like they have changed some things also with there formulas and what i use to use..The Mon on the MaxNos is 113 and if your running 14. to 1 in a aluminum engine thats more then enough..never use RON rating as its a average...

With no more shot that your running I think thats a good choise as well and.If I was going to run race petrol again it would be the VP because of total EP is at 211F thats important for my application and amount of nitrous...Steve as i am sure you will but please check the SG of the fuel and go slow when ever changing fuel .Also SG is mesuerd at 60f so adjust accordanly...

Adding more O2 as with the O2 blended fuel is ok...you just need to caliberate for it but runnnig nitrous you all ready have that..but in ethanol its a % of O2 like Methanol has even more... cant say either way for any one engine not knowing all the numbers..but one thing for sure is Import is final EP 354deg F.....thats 100 degrees more then all the others fuel...so it trully a turbo fuel in my eyes....Also i want to correct my wording as I said it was a slower burning fuel the Sunoco Nos but it seems even they have changed hwo it was even explaind to me by Sunoco but i guess the reall thing is the complete burn is what there trying to do..Talking to Pro Stock racers here wanted to run that fuel as well but there class only allows Spec. fuel only but it was 118 at the time...and it was Red in color.....Like the world all things change...LOL

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:24 pm 
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One other thing in comparing what the VP site said reguarding the N2O fuel is it was made for fogger or 3 stages of nitrous...but it didnt give an amount and you have to look at relative numbers...meaning for CC's per lb of nitrous and need to look at the density of the nitrous we are adding compared to others and then adding even more density I think with Revo it may be the fuel for Dave..but if you cant use the octane thats bad too as it wont burn clean .

As I said Steve i think you made a great choice and not knowing your compression..not just static as dynamic is more important as this is the true heat kept in the cyl.

Once again this is why I asked for dynamic and static compression numbers...this is very important and also where I made many many mistakes :loser: and only in the past few years as i stated being away i understand alot more what was happening.... :o :o

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:49 am 
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Johnny

When using a wide band 02 with the race or the leaded fuels do you have to make any allowances in your readings , what i mean do you set the tune richer or leaner to compensate for any effect this fuel or nitrous come to think of it has on what the wideband displays on your A/F gauge , I know the dyno shops dont like to tune bikes running race fuels

I seam to rember Dave saying on his bike the wide band reads richer than what his plugs show

I dont run race gas as i ride bike to track but this may change next year along with a wideband and EGT

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:24 am 
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Tezz it really comes down to the sensor it self..the qulity ones like i bought are expensive and ment for use with ethanol or methanol and or its ok on leaded fuels as long as its not getting wet or to hot....Really no...as AFR is really a related reading of lambda and is adjust for the fuel you are using ....like methanol or Ethanol and or Petrol....but no as far as differant petrol or nitrous as its still ready that number..but if your not recording it to see what it does thru the run trying to adjust it to a number is once again a big no no as i said..plus if your see just a peek and hold reading thru the run whats messed up is that number could be from a over rev in the 2 /3 shift or any of the shifts....Plus where is Dave reading it at? Using a O2 sensor after the colector in my eyes is a waste of money for what we are doing....

Also care and using it correctly is key...I would about 2 mins before we started the engine turn the sensore on as to heat it completly before we started it...Calabiration depending on brand....and really the only way to really use it for nitrous racing is to place bungs 8 to 12 inches from your exhuast valve in each tube as I did and I would tune the engine by the plug to what i thought was the best and then see where my AFR was and if i thought I could get a bit more I made a step lean to see what happend to the plug just that plug alone and with ethanol I was somewhere at 7.9 i think and that was e85 but i only got to do this with a few cyl. as we started to have motor issues but it did help allow me to see where I was when i thought I was lean if i could go leaner and ti did go colder in my exhaust when i took it further then i would have with out it...now this is seeing it all the way thru the run not just a peek.....you cant put it in the collector as you can see good numbers but poor cyl as you know...but you cvan tune to a number because your O2 sensor is mounted in your motor kinda like using your tire gauge for racing and no one elses because there are differances....but as far as leaded race fuel and nitrous isnt a problem done right so like if you change a fuel that has a differant specific gravity lighter means you have to jet up or heavier lean it out....also temp of fuel makes a differant also...but really this is only a problem and needs to be checked when you are on the razors edge

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:50 am 
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Thanks for that Johnny so a wide band that can data log whole run really is important rather than one with just a display

Im looking forward to seeing how dave gets on this weekend now he has option of where to inject fuel and if it makes any difference

I could not find a pic of the current revo set up but hears his bike
www.noswizard.com/details.php?id=19

One thing thats always bothered me was the position of the fuel injectors right at edge of carb and before them , it always worried me that on a bigger shot and any reversion would push the fuel back and drop out into free air and just leave nitrous where as if injector was after carb very close to engin and vavle the fuel would to a degree be contained , im still undecied as of yet if to keep both my fuel and nitrous after carb on a bigger shot or venom fuel injectors as close to engin as possible and then inject nitrous thro carb to even up the race of fuel and nitrous getting to engin

anyway thats another topic lol

Agin thanks johnny for ya input

Tezz


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:32 am 
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Tezz wrote:
Johnny

When using a wide band 02 with the race or the leaded fuels do you have to make any allowances in your readings , what i mean do you set the tune richer or leaner to compensate for any effect this fuel or nitrous come to think of it has on what the wideband displays on your A/F gauge , I know the dyno shops dont like to tune bikes running race fuels

I seam to rember Dave saying on his bike the wide band reads richer than what his plugs show

I dont run race gas as i ride bike to track but this may change next year along with a wideband and EGT

Thanks

Tezz

If i get your meaning Tezz, you're pretty much talking about different stoich for different fuels. Pump pee has a stoich of 14.7, so running AFR of 11 would be on the rich side NA while accelerating. Add gas and this changes as theres more oxygen in gas so its not as rich but still safe. Now if your race fuel has a stoich value of say 12.5, then obviously you need to read accordingly, so ideally you want to be nearer 10 AFR. How you determine the stoich value of a fuel im not sure, but am looking in to it.
This is obviously where FI and the max extreme score well, as with FI you can set a target AFR and with the max you can set an AFR window, with the race version on REVO i beleive you can set target AFR also, which with quality components should read and adjust in mili seconds and save your engine. Also positioning will be a key factor here, again probably a science in itself lol. But if you can read each cylinder before run and then on pass measure the average you should be good, which is what i think Johnny was saying?
As an aside, those values on the sunoco Johnny, they are measured using the same test procedure, i did check all the test numbers to make sure. 15 Deg C is near as damn it 60f, but as long as the test numbers are the same the results are comparible.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:35 am
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Thanks Steve kind of what i was getting at , is do you ajust your target A/F to the different fuels and when using nitrous

Ive seen post of peoepl using 11-1 12-1 Na but dropping this to 10-1 using nitrous and plugs at both look ok , now if 12-1 is NA and 10-1 is what they set it for nitrous im guesing in the transition period there will be a variable if you set sensor to maintain 12-1 when you hit gas it will think you rich if you set at 10 -1 it will think you lean before ya hit gas or same if you have a seperate tank that runs race gas for nitrous and pump for NA , not a problem if you launch and use Nitrous from line i guess unless you have a slow reacting sensor

or are they wrong and what ever you set at NA when you fire nitrous it should be same ?

this could get very confusing if you have an NA system and a seperate tanke with race gas for nitrous if the values are different IE not both 14.7-1

Hmmm wideband with data logger looks to be even more important


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 Post subject: Re: Dave Bailey - my quickest UK customer
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:24 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:20 pm
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Right, have been reading up on this and now understand why ppl recomend reading in lambda.......
Basically stoich is volume of oxygen required to burn volume of fuel, this is why stoich changes with fuels and nitrous. This is also why AFR is shown as a ratio i.e 14.7:1, that represents 14.7 parts/ units of oxygen: 1 part/unit of fuel. This is the ratio for COMPLETE combustion, no oxygen and no fuel left over, which is somewhere we never want to be lol.
Now if you read in lambda, the above (complete combustion) is represented as 1 (depending on sensor type), and thats regardless of fuel type. So to set a target in this format is much easier, now all we need to know is which way is rich and which way is lean lol, but from what ive found so far, a reading of say 1.1 would be lean and 0.9 would be rich, so you could set a target of say 0.8 which in comparison would give you around 11.5 AFR.
Hope that helps

Steve

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