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 Post subject: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:42 pm 
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Hello just installed wizards sb75 to my aprilia rsv mille 1000 twin cylinder bike
Using it for drag racing only at moment . Cross fire injectors into trumpets, minimax controller, ignition has been retarded by 2 degrees , ngk cooler plugs and race fuel .
currently running 25 shot which does make a slight diffrence but thinking about going to 50 for the strip . There's loads of info everywhere regarding nitrous on the jap stuff but hardly anything on 2 cylinder engines . Is a 50 shot on a v-twin in effect the same as a 50 shot on a 4 cylinder bike . I imagine not as same amount of nitrous /fuel is being split over 4 cylinders and not 2 ?? I hear people talking about 100 shot on some bikes at the pod but would imagine they have lower compression etc to compensate . Basically do you think a 50 shot on a v-twin is reasonable ? He he i bet you get bored of answering the same questions , sorry it's all new to me !! :) :redface:


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Bakin78 wrote:
Hello just installed wizards sb75 to my aprilia rsv mille 1000 twin cylinder bike
Using it for drag racing only at moment . Cross fire injectors into trumpets,
Is it fuel injected?

minimax controller, ignition has been retarded by 2 degrees, ngk cooler plugs and race fuel.
You don't need to retard the timing unless you advanced it from standard to start with.

currently running 25 shot which does make a slight diffrence
Retarding the timing will have reduced the effect but even so, it should have made more than a slight difference, so the mixture is probably too rich. What jet sizes are you using?

but thinking about going to 50 for the strip . There's loads of info everywhere regarding nitrous on the jap stuff but hardly anything on 2 cylinder engines.
There's no real difference with regards to application.

Is a 50 shot on a v-twin in effect the same as a 50 shot on a 4 cylinder bike. I imagine not as same amount of nitrous /fuel is being split over 4 cylinders and not 2 ??
It will make the same peak power but due to the difference in engine characteristics, the torque up to peak power will be a bit different but different 4 cylinder engines can produce different results to others anyway.

I hear people talking about 100 shot on some bikes at the pod but would imagine they have lower compression etc to compensate.
There should be NO need to lower the compression unless its abnormally high to start with for well over 100 HP gain.

Basically do you think a 50 shot on a v-twin is reasonable ?
MOST CERTAINLY and even 100 HP should be OK with a progressive.

He he i bet you get bored of answering the same questions , sorry it's all new to me !! :) :redface:
No that's fine as they are usually a bit different and I'm more than happy to set you on the right track.

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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:47 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:32 pm
Posts: 6
Thanks for your advice!


Bike is fuel injected and also has power commander for fuelling side . I need to get PC set up to make sure , currently doubling the jet for fuel 25/50 so will pull plugs and have a quick look .
As for the timing , have I got this round my neck or something ? , my aim was to just use a 50 shot this year so everyone I have spoke to has advised me to retard ignition by 2 degrees to prevent the danger of engine knock . Is this simply cods wallop !!!:)

I know that higher octane fuel in effect retards the ignition anyway with the slower burn .

Thank you for your time Trev
Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Bakin78 wrote:
Thanks for your advice!
My pleasure

Bike is fuel injected and also has power commander for fuelling side . I need to get PC set up to make sure , currently doubling the jet for fuel 25/50 so will pull plugs and have a quick look .
Do you have a bottle heater?
When you say you're doubling the fuel jet size to 50, do you mean without doubling the nitrous jet, because if so there's NO point doing that as it will be WAY TOO RICH.


As for the timing , have I got this round my neck or something ? , my aim was to just use a 50 shot this year so everyone I have spoke to has advised me to retard ignition by 2 degrees to prevent the danger of engine knock . Is this simply cods wallop !!!:)
If you were using a JUNK US brand kit then you might need to retard your timing on a 50 HP increase but you certainly should NOT need to retard the timing when using OUR system, ESPECIALLY with a progressive controller.

I know that higher octane fuel in effect retards the ignition anyway with the slower burn .
Correct


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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:21 pm
Posts: 151
How have you set the power commander up?, from what I've seen they run pig rich from the factory.


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Ok that's great thank you. Power commander is set up for bike as it stands without the nitrous.
I do have a bottle heater so psi should be constant . I currently have a 25 nitrous jet and 50 fuel and was going to up it to 50 nitrous 100 fuel which I am assuming is the correct way of doing things.

I had a custom eprom made to accomplish the 2 degree retard so will swap it back to the standard chip if there's no point

just one last question , why do you not need to retard the ignition with YOUR system but you do on the US crap . Is it all down to the solenoids or progressive controller or both?

Thanks again Trev will be up on sat for some bottle fills . Santa pod on Sunday complete with thermals !!! :albino:


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:21 pm
Posts: 151
Should be 100 nitrous and 50 fuel for a 50hp shot?.


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Bakin78 wrote:
I currently have a 25 nitrous jet and 50 fuel and was going to up it to 50 nitrous 100 fuel which I am assuming is the correct way of doing things.
THAT EXPLAINS IT!!!!! The jets are the WRONG WAY ROUND, so you are ONLY adding 12.5 HP of nitrous AND FIFTY HP worth of fuel, so it's FOUR TIMES TOO RICH which will KILL OFF 90% of the 12.5 HP it SHOULD be making, so you'll probably be lucky if the bike was making TWO HP, so no wonder you were less than impressed!!!

I had a custom eprom made to accomplish the 2 degree retard so will swap it back to the standard chip if there's no point
With that 2 degrees of retard you probably KILLED OFF 50% of the TWO HP leving you with JUST ONE!!!

just one last question , why do you not need to retard the ignition with YOUR system but you do on the US crap . Is it all down to the solenoids or progressive controller or both?
Numerous reasons;
1) Better product design means the nitrous reaches the motor in a more dense form which makes the charge less prone to detonation
2) Better system design and choice of components and fitting instruction, reduce the effect of nitrous reaching the engine before the fuel (which causes thermal shock to set in), so the timing doesn't need retarding to counter that effect.
3) Delivering the mix with a progressive means less nitrous is delivered when the motor is under most load and combine that with all the above and it means you need to retard the timing even less.


Thanks again Trev will be up on sat for some bottle fills . Santa pod on Sunday complete with thermals !!! :albino:
I hope you can make it up here on a weekday as we're closed on Saturdays now.

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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:32 pm
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Don't think it's my bike that is retarded

Thanks for all you help


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:43 pm 
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My pleasure, keep us informed of your progress.

BTW we have a customer with a similar bike that holds a World Land Speed record ON ICE.

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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Nitrous on v-twin help !!!
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:13 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:51 pm
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Location: birmingham UK
What's happened with this mille? And why haven't you come to see us in supertwins? :lol:

Are you twin or single plug?

My buell 1125s run a very similar rotax motor to the mille. But are only single plug heads.
They can run a lot of advance to run well,but standard they don't run too much at wot. The twin plug probably runs less.

I've just run a 30hp dry shot-fixed hit,into the airbox- and gained 3/10ths and 5mph. With 37 - 42 degrees timing at wot from 7500 to 11000rpm. Quite a bit more advance than std.But,and it's a big but,I knew where I was headed so I'm running VPimport 120 octane and very dense

As you've got a powercommander,why not go dry and use the pc to add fuel? Your pc software should be able to show you what pulsewidths you're running,so you can work out if you've got the headroom. It's quite simple to work out how much extra fuel you'll need,if you know how much hp you have at peak torque.

I fitted 750cc injectors to replace the std 440s as I knew there wasn't much spare.

Come and meet the NAST we're a friendly bunch and always very helpful. Our vice chair ran a nitrous mille and there is a blown methanol mille being built as we speak.

I use ECMspy to reprogramme my stock ecu. :yes:

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Buell 1125r 9.49@140


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