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 Post subject: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Plan to run my FJ1200 streetbike at Speedweek this year - running for fun and experience this year.

They consider nitrous to be "fuel" and must comply with all rules concerning fuel systems.
Th rule on fuel lines is "Plastic fuel lines are not permitted, except certified clear fuel lines, clearly marked on the fuel line by the manufacturer as for fuel application."

How do you recommend to plumb the nitrous system? Hard line from the cylinder to solenoid? If so, is it possible to run the entire system as hard line?

Thanks - Chris

If it makes a difference, the bike had been converted to EFI and plan to run a dry system that will be dyno tuned


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:05 pm 
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It's probably better to use braided hose between the bottle & Pulsoid, which we can improve by internal sleeving.
From the Pulsoid onward I'm not sure that nylon is excluded but if it is, then hard pipe should sort it but it would be better to use our Pro Series Discharge Tubes, instead of our Venom's.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:54 am 
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Noswizard wrote:
It's probably better to use braided hose between the bottle & Pulsoid, which we can improve by internal sleeving.
From the Pulsoid onward I'm not sure that nylon is excluded but if it is, then hard pipe should sort it but it would be better to use our Pro Series Discharge Tubes, instead of our Venom's.


Internal sleeving - would that be a large sized braided line with the nylon line run inside?!

I'd prefer to use the discharge tubes - but may have to get creative. I don't have an airbox - instead using UNI foam pods. Thinking I'll punch a small hole in the filter for the discharge tube and seal it with a rubber grommet (like used to pass wires thru a firewall). Other ideas?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:25 pm 
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fj1289 wrote:
Internal sleeving - would that be a large sized braided line with the nylon line run inside?!
Yup - 4AN with sleeving to reduce it to 2mm.

I'd prefer to use the discharge tubes - but may have to get creative. I don't have an airbox - instead using UNI foam pods. Thinking I'll punch a small hole in the filter for the discharge tube and seal it with a rubber grommet (like used to pass wires thru a firewall). Other ideas?
You shouldn't need to do anything other than punch a 4mm hole through the filter, as it will be adequately sealed by a snug fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:12 pm 
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Thanks!

Reading on other threads here for nuggets of wisdom - saw something about coil on plug not being a good strong ignition. Does that apply for the Suzuki GSXR1000 or Hayabusa COPs?


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:59 pm 
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It applies in general for the following reasons;

1) They are very small and therefore limited to what can be achieved
2) They are subjected to higher temps and electrical components don't like that, so they lose power and will fail sooner.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 3:07 pm 
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Ok - time to revisit this thread

I'm now gathering the parts for the nitrous system. I did buy a used set of X-10s. I know that is not the ideal solution and I am assuming some risk and responsibility for doing so.

Looking for some advise on the best way to set up the system. The ECU I am using is a plug-and-play ECU based on microsquirt architecture. I have a little over a year experience with it running on the street. It has the ability to manage the fuel for up to two stages of dry nitrous - but no progressive control. The scheme it uses is to specify the added pulse width at a low RPM setting and the added pulse width at a high RPM setting. Theoretically, if your low RPM setting in 5000 RPM and the high was 10000 RPM, the added pulse width for a fixed hit would be half at 10000 RPm as for 5000 RPM - since the pulses would be occurring twice as often.
My concern with this is attempting to progress the nitrous. My initial thoughts are to plan for 20, 40, 60, 80 and maybe 100 shots -- working up a bit at a time to see how much power the available traction will hold with my setup.

I have thought of going with an RPM based nitrous progression - that could allow some tailoring of the fuel curve. The downfall of that would be the tendancy to add more power once tire spin begins.

Or am I a lot better off with a wet system and pulsing the fuel along wih the nitrous?


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:48 am 
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fj1289 wrote:
Quote:
Ok - time to revisit this thread

Sorry I missed your post until now.

Quote:
I'm now gathering the parts for the nitrous system. I did buy a used set of X-10s. I know that is not the ideal solution and I am assuming some risk and responsibility for doing so.

As long as they've not been tampered with they should be fine as they NEVER wear out.

Quote:
Looking for some advise on the best way to set up the system. The ECU I am using is a plug-and-play ECU based on microsquirt architecture. I have a little over a year experience with it running on the street. It has the ability to manage the fuel for up to two stages of dry nitrous - but no progressive control.

Progressive is much better than staged.

Quote:
The scheme it uses is to specify the added pulse width at a low RPM setting and the added pulse width at a high RPM setting. Theoretically, if your low RPM setting in 5000 RPM and the high was 10000 RPM, the added pulse width for a fixed hit would be half at 10000 RPm as for 5000 RPM - since the pulses would be occurring twice as often.

For a fixed nitrous delivery you need a FIXED increase in fuel, regardless of RPM. Just because the injector operates twice as often does NOT mean it is delivering twice as much fuel and is in fact delivering less as each operation is for each cycle, so needs to be the same. The only proviso for this is that there is less time available to suck in a charge of nitrous, so you will get progressively less in as the rpm increases but you need to MATCH THAT, NOT HOPE that its going to be correct.

Quote:
My concern with this is attempting to progress the nitrous. My initial thoughts are to plan for 20, 40, 60, 80 and maybe 100 shots -- working up a bit at a time to see how much power the available traction will hold with my setup.

If it doesn't have the capacity to get a fixed delivery correct, it will at best be hit and miss used for progressive delivery.

Quote:
I have thought of going with an RPM based nitrous progression - that could allow some tailoring of the fuel curve. The downfall of that would be the tendancy to add more power once tire spin begins.

Time based is the best option, which is why ALL controllers use that method.

Quote:
Or am I a lot better off with a wet system and pulsing the fuel along wih the nitrous?

Yes you most certainly are.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:02 am 
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Thanks Trevor - had a feeling wet would be the way to go after I thought about it more.

What setup do you recommend? Discharge tubes for the nitrous and venoms for the fuel? Y blocks for both? Or does fuel do better with a different scheme - like a shower head or radial discharge blocks?

Do you recommend utilizing the EFI fuel system to feed the fuel solenoid? Or is a separate lower pressure fuel pump a better option? Or, what type of power levels can be supported by gravity feed from a dedicated fuel tap?

Finally, to meet their tech requirements, are the poly fuel lines "clearly marked...for fuel application"? Or will we also need to get creative for the fuel lines to the venoms?

Thanks,
Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:59 pm 
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fj1289 wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Trevor - had a feeling wet would be the way to go after I thought about it more.

Have you had an email from Lisa in reply to yours yet?

Quote:
What setup do you recommend? Discharge tubes for the nitrous and venoms for the fuel? Y blocks for both? Or does fuel do better with a different scheme - like a shower head or radial discharge blocks?

Certainly Discharge Tubes for the nitrous but you'd get best results from the fuel using our Atomising injectors;
http://www.noswizard.com/nitrous-ancill ... zzles.html

These give you all the advantages of other nozzles and most of those from dry systems, without the drawbacks the others suffer.
Y-Blocks are best for the nitrous (but MUST be fitted and set up correctly) and our shower head should be best for the fuel, although Y-Blocks would also work well.

Quote:
Do you recommend utilizing the EFI fuel system to feed the fuel solenoid? Or is a separate lower pressure fuel pump a better option? Or, what type of power levels can be supported by gravity feed from a dedicated fuel tap?

A separate HIGH pressure pump with adjustable regulator is best in all respects. we can supply all that you need for that but if you choose to buy from any other source, MAKE SURE you get TOP knowledge on what you need, otherwise you can kiss your motor goodbye, as the FUEL is the most important part of the system for reliability.
Gravity is fine for modest power levels when using the nitrous to atomise the fuel but for anything serious it MUST be high pressure pumped fuel, to get the desired level of atomisation.

Quote:
Finally, to meet their tech requirements, are the poly fuel lines "clearly marked...for fuel application"? Or will we also need to get creative for the fuel lines to the venoms?

It's NOT marked as being for fuel applications but I've never seen any that is and as far as I'm aware ALL nylon pipe is suitable for use with fuel.
Unless you run under different rules to other LSR racers you shouldn't have a problem, because I believe we have a few using our systems with nylon pipe that haven't had any problems with tech inspections.
having said that I have heard of some who have had to use our hard pipe, so if you want to play safe we can supply that instead but it will make you life (fitting) much harder.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:42 am 
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I don't think I've received the reply - but I'll double check my junk folder.

Running an external pump rated at 160 lph at 3 bar for the EFI. Would a second one be sufficient for the nitrous side?

Have not seen those nozzles yet. Where is the preferred installation location? The head (if there is room)? In the manifolds (again if room)? Would the engine side of the TBs be acceptable? And do you mount them 90 degrees to the airflow? Or try to angle them down the port?

Thanks again for your time and advice


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:03 am 
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In case I made a mistake on my email in the contact form:

cwyatt257 "at" hotmail.com


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 6:28 pm 
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fj1289 wrote:
Quote:
I don't think I've received the reply - but I'll double check my junk folder.

As it wasn't a simple yes or no reply that was required my assistant may not have dealt with it yet.

Quote:
Running an external pump rated at 160 lph at 3 bar for the EFI. Would a second one be sufficient for the nitrous side?

Yes

Quote:
Have not seen those nozzles yet. Where is the preferred installation location? The head (if there is room)? In the manifolds (again if room)? Would the engine side of the TBs be acceptable? And do you mount them 90 degrees to the airflow? Or try to angle them down the port?

As close to the inlet valves as possible and aimed at them if possible, otherwise the closest you can get to that will do.

Quote:
Thanks again for your time and advice

My pleasure


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Trevor - since I'll be going into the engine to swap the FJ rods for the stronger XJR rods, what changes would you recommend?

Engine currently has copper head and base gaskets -- plan to swap them for MLS gaskets.

Cams are a mild performance grind - Megacycle grind 268: .375" lift, 257 duration at .040" lift, recommended center lines 104.5 intake and 106.5 exhaust. Stock is listed as intake .315 lift, 233 duration, and exhaust .313 lift, 232 duration with lobe centers 104-105. Any recommendations on lobe centers?

Pistons are Wiseco forged 1314 big bores listed at 10.25:1 compression compared to 9.7:1 stock. I haven't measured yet, but I assume quench height is about .040". Would you recommend adding a spacer plate under the cylinder to decrease compression (and increasing quench)? How thick of a plate? Or is keeping the quench tight better?

Had a close look at the head, looks like there is room to install the fuel nozzles in the top of intake ports at a 30-45 degree angle.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Very sorry for the late response but I'd somehow missed your post until now.

fj1289 wrote:
Quote:
Engine currently has copper head and base gaskets -- plan to swap them for MLS gaskets.

I've always used copper (with wire sealing rings) on motorcycles but I have many customers who use MLS successfully.

Quote:
Cams are a mild performance grind - Megacycle grind 268: .375" lift, 257 duration at .040" lift, recommended center lines 104.5 intake and 106.5 exhaust. Stock is listed as intake .315 lift, 233 duration, and exhaust .313 lift, 232 duration with lobe centers 104-105. Any recommendations on lobe centers?

Unless you're intending to add LOADS of nitrous (in which case I'd suggest bigger cams), just run them as advised for NA use.

Quote:
Pistons are Wiseco forged 1314 big bores listed at 10.25:1 compression compared to 9.7:1 stock. I haven't measured yet, but I assume quench height is about .040". Would you recommend adding a spacer plate under the cylinder to decrease compression (and increasing quench)? How thick of a plate? Or is keeping the quench tight better?

Again it depends on how much nitrous you intend to add but the general rule is this, the more you intend to add the lower the compression wants to be and that usually means more quench clearance.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:43 pm 
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No worries. I've been on email with Lisa discussing the options.

If I keep the max nitrous to the 100-150 range would the existing engine configuration be suitable?

How limiting do you anticipate the camshafts to be? I may be able to "borrow" the cams from the dragbike -- need to check specs after work.

I assume if I want to attempt more than 150 then the spacer plate will be a necessity? How low to go on compression then? Around the stock 9.7:1? Drop back to 8.5:1?

I know the salt conditions will ultimately determine how much power is usable due to traction available. But I would like to be prepared for the best it will hold!

Also, I'm not concerned with effecting street ability with the lowered compression ratio since I will remove the spacer plate once I'm done at Bonneville.

Thanks for your advice! (Zero years of nitrous experience and counting...)


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:16 pm 
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fj1289 wrote:
Quote:
No worries. I've been on email with Lisa discussing the options.

Glad to hear it.

Quote:
If I keep the max nitrous to the 100-150 range would the existing engine configuration be suitable?

It certainly should, especially if you deliver it in a mild progressive manner but I'd still drop the compression by 1 unless you intend to use a high octane fuel or additive.

Quote:
How limiting do you anticipate the camshafts to be? I may be able to "borrow" the cams from the dragbike -- need to check specs after work.

Let's put it like this; there's no point put loads in if you can't get it all out and although most exhaust components can handle more exhaust gas flow than standard, increasing it can only be beneficial.

Quote:
I assume if I want to attempt more than 150 then the spacer plate will be a necessity? How low to go on compression then? Around the stock 9.7:1? Drop back to 8.5:1?

The lower you go the more nitrous the motor will handle and the safer it will handle it. Necessity is a matter of assessing a number of factors (fuel type, ignition timing, cams & timing, amount of nitrous, how you delivery, etc.), so there's no one answer fits all.

Quote:
I know the salt conditions will ultimately determine how much power is usable due to traction available. But I would like to be prepared for the best it will hold!

Based on info from other LSR customers, the most important factor is 'control', so a Max Extreme is essential

Quote:
Also, I'm not concerned with effecting street ability with the lowered compression ratio since I will remove the spacer plate once I'm done at Bonneville.

I doubt you'd notice the difference and if anything a lower compression will make it more rider friendly.

Quote:
Thanks for your advice! (Zero years of nitrous experience and counting...)

:lol: My pleasure. :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:45 pm 
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Yes - high octane race gas will be used!

My thoughts are to lower the compression ratio to 8.7:1 -- that's a point lower than stock and about a point and half less than the current setup. That will open the quench up to .095". As I understand it, that should be large enough to act somewhat like an open chamber and not get into the detonation danger area when the quench is a little too big to be effective, but not large enough to act like an open chamber. Please advise if .095" quench height sounds like I could get myself into trouble.

Had a look at the cam specs for the dragbike. It won't be a simple cam swap -- will need to be a head swap since the entire valve train had to be setup for the higher lift cams. The specs are .422" lift and 288 duration (260 duration at .05" lift). On the dragbike (1447cc) the lobe centers are 111 Intake, 112 Exhaust. What do you recommend for nitrous use on a 1314cc engine?

Finally, redline questions with nitrous use. Stock redline is 9,500 rpm. I feel comfortable running up to 10,500 with the better rods and pistons. Should I gear for 10,000 RPMs? Or will it be more effective (and safer for the engine) with nitrous to gear for lower RPMs? Like 9000?


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 Post subject: Re: Bonneville / Southern California Timing Association
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:07 pm 
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fj1289 wrote:
Quote:
Yes - high octane race gas will be used!

My thoughts are to lower the compression ratio to 8.7:1 -- that's a point lower than stock and about a point and half less than the current setup. That will open the quench up to .095". As I understand it, that should be large enough to act somewhat like an open chamber and not get into the detonation danger area when the quench is a little too big to be effective, but not large enough to act like an open chamber. Please advise if .095" quench height sounds like I could get myself into trouble.

That should all be fine.

Quote:
Had a look at the cam specs for the dragbike. It won't be a simple cam swap -- will need to be a head swap since the entire valve train had to be setup for the higher lift cams. The specs are .422" lift and 288 duration (260 duration at .05" lift). On the dragbike (1447cc) the lobe centers are 111 Intake, 112 Exhaust. What do you recommend for nitrous use on a 1314cc engine?

For this application I wouldn't be too concerned about cam spec, other than to fit the biggest exhaust cam you can get in, without anything making unwanted contact.

Quote:
Finally, redline questions with nitrous use. Stock redline is 9,500 rpm. I feel comfortable running up to 10,500 with the better rods and pistons. Should I gear for 10,000 RPMs? Or will it be more effective (and safer for the engine) with nitrous to gear for lower RPMs? Like 9000?

Gear for higher rpm as it will use less nitrous per cycle (which is easier on the motor) but make sure your gearing accounts for the extra rpm it will pull, as a consequence of the extra nitrous power.

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