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 Post subject: Zex plate
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:38 pm 
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Interesting design but just as bad as the NOS job that was dumped.

http://www.zex.com/information/whatsnew ... =453928176

Click on the video clip and then keep freeze framing it to see how bad the distribution is. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Any one (except Loopy) can guess why the distribution is so bad and point out any flaws in the design concept????

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:38 pm 
:lol:
Quote:
If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything
Thats what my mum used to say anyway.
10 seconds in and i spat my coffee out.
at 13 seconds i was lucky i was still wiping my chin.
23 seconds and i made a real mess.
But 39 seconds was a pretty good demonstration of the vacuum effect you get until you reach reversion levels though.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Loopy wrote:
:lol:
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But 39 seconds was a pretty good demonstration of the vacuum effect you get until you reach reversion levels though.


How true but for them to claim this is something new is unreal as we've been designing components to make use of this effect for many years and it's a naturally occurring phenomena of the flow of any high pressure gas as it exits to atmoshpere (as I'm certain you're aware - lol).

We'll give everyone a few days to visit the site and see what they can make of it before I give my explanation for the bad distribution.

Oh and by the way I designed a new plate system earlier today that I'm sure will produce better results than any I've seen so far, so I'll be trying to make time to get a prototype made especially for my American market.

I'll send the first sample over for Jason (hellbent) to try out, as I think he'd be interested in the performance of it.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:15 pm 
Noswizard wrote:
How true but for them to claim this is something new is unreal as we've been designing components to make use of this effect for many years and it's a naturally occurring phenomena of the flow of any high pressure gas as it exits to atmosphere (as I'm certain you're aware - lol)

Good old Mr Bernoulli eh ? Where would we be without him and his principles.
(Not that the effect didn't exist before, just he explained it and gave birth to the theory behind the carburettor for example.)
You don't need a "high" pressure gas, just "higher" pressure creates the effect, but to a lesser degree obviously.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:44 pm 
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1) The rag test was pointless in my mind. You have hundreds of psi blowing with great force. Blowing a feathery light rag a few feet proves what? Must be another one of those special effects to draw attention and take away from what really matters. I do undertsand the vacuum effect tying to be demonstrated but all it's doing is grabbing a corner of the rag and once the forward force grabs the rag it takes over from there. Again a pointless part of the video all in all.

2) After a few runs in pause mode the poor distribution even comes apparent at full speed. At first I'm thinking it's not a big deal since it's going into one big center inlet. Then I looked at the spray patterns and can see how they are directed at certain runners. The main feed ends are spraying quite a lot more in the end runners than the center runners are getting as Alfa said. Some of the spray ports are trickling out in comparison.

3) I'm not sure how the plate is designed internally but it looks like there are dead ends on the sides so most of the pressure is at the firts and end ports. The middle ports in the corners look like they barely spray anything.

I do have to say initially I was thinking what's terribly wrong and what is Trev going on about. No wonder novices are so easily impressed as you just see a mass of nitrous spraying out and don't think about the details.

So in summary Trev are you saying we need fancy videos instead of all this technical talk on the board to attract people? LOL


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:07 pm 
Its when you spray so much nitrous volume that instead of the engine eating it all it actually starts spilling back out of the inlet.
In theory and with todays nitrous technology you can't actually pressurise the inlet with nitrous, as soon as you reach atmospheric pressure it just exits through the carb / butterfly.

Thats the theory anyway ;)
I never did go much on theory :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:17 pm 
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Loopy,

I've got a solution to that. :mrgreen:

If someone tells me it can't be done - guess what - I try and do it and usually succeed!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:23 am 
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"Any one (except Loopy) can guess why the distribution is so bad and point out any flaws in the design concept" ???? :? :? :?


Still waiting

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:55 am 
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aha i c, i came in from the wrong angle, its cuz its called `zex` and it sounds more like washing powder ;)

or is it cuz the music shouts `outa control outa control` which isnt really good either, especially if its a subliminal message :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:31 am 
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Alfaluva,

Almost got it - :lol:

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Last edited by Noswizard on Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:08 pm 
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what do u mean by uneven trev, uneven as in more cylinders getting more gas cuz it points to the centre or uneven in some other way.
perhaps the stuff that comes out far side has gone through more bends hence suffered more phase change than the entry side, see im clutcin at straws.....no actually ill stick with the name and music being a bad design concept :lol: :lol: :lol:

i wanted to travel up 2day, but with all the fools queing for petrol (and if your reading this and your 1 of em yes i mean u 2 :lol: ) i dont know if its a good idea. am i the only person who wont queue for anything ever??? oh by the way, put me on the waiting list for the smooth sys :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ron i thought you had it then.......and then i thought `one what?? comes out quicker than the other?? share with me :) is the word side missing or am i firing blanks :D but your right it almost looks pulsed, and without a progresive....hey this stuff is good :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:28 pm 
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The stuff shoots out like 3 feet but the plenum is maybe 6 inches. Aren't the plenum and runners going to be packed so full that distribution won't even figure into the picture? Also that was just nitrous, no fuel. It seem like so much spray that it would come out the carb?
Guys, please don't think that I'm trying start a fight. I look at things different than most people and I ask a lot of questions to try and learn. I really don't care who makes it or where it's made as long as it gets the job done.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:28 pm 
katman wrote:
Guys, please don't think that I'm trying start a fight. I look at things different than most people and I ask a lot of questions to try and learn. I really don't care who makes it or where it's made as long as it gets the job done.

Thats a wonderful attitude to have and don't ever think we "knock" something for any reason other than it deserves to be knocked. If we seem (extremely) biased then stick with it, we may just have our reasons ;)
Quote:
The stuff shoots out like 3 feet but the plenum is maybe 6 inches. Aren't the plenum and runners going to be packed so full that distribution won't even figure into the picture? Also that was just nitrous, no fuel. It seem like so much spray that it would come out the carb?

Stop looking at the plume of mist, forget it's even there because it's nothing. Only liquid has real effect.
Also look carefully at the non functioning fuel side of things for another design mistake.

Sorry i can't help further, but i'm banned :cry:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Alfaluva,

You're on the right track with the distance it travels from the point of entry to exit and phase change is one contributor to the uneven end result.


Katman,

We have no problems with questions or anothers point of view, the only thing we have problems with is "closed minds" so as long as you have an open mind you're welcome here.

Your comments are correct (to a degree) and I suspect that's why they aimed it all to the center because they couldn't think of a way to get an even distribution but that's a poor way to design a product.

To be hoenest it's not easy to design a plate that will not result in uneven distribution but I've now got a couple of designs that I'll prototype and one will be put into production in the near future.

My main point is that if a job is worth doing it's worth doing right and as usual Zex haven't got it 100% right but it's probably better than most of the others on the market (thanks to the turbulence created by all the plumes being fired at the center), so it will probably sell well.

By the way I have the same principles (contrary to popular opinion) that I don't care who makes a product or where it's from and that's what annoys me when people say I'm anti-American, because it's nothing to do with them being made in America, it wouldn't matter to me where they were made (and in actual fact most parts are made for the American companies by other Third world companies anyway), it's JUST the poor designs and it just happens that 99% of nitrous companies are based in America.

Anyway the question still stands and for the record it's just for educational purposes. Here's a clue to one of the causes, the same problem applies to the standard spray bar that we recently assessed and the original US style distribution blocks. ;)

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Last edited by Noswizard on Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:37 pm 
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Here go my thoughts..

First thing that jumps out to me is that we are looking strictly at *one* part in a **system** of distributing fuel/air/nitrous equally to each inlet valve.

Secondly, they don't show the fuel bring distributed.

Third is the temperature of the nitrous is different at different areas of the plate. (the frost line propigates as time elapses)

Fourth, they show a single plane manifold. It's spraying right at the inside wall of a dual plane?



Seems to me that if I put that plate on my 1987 monte carlo SS.. I'll be spraying in a real environment where intake valves are closed/open and the carbs air flow *streams* are affecting the nitrous injected path. I'd think it will vary depending on which valve is open?

Coming off my rochester 4 barrel carb the fuel and air are not equally distributed front to rear. Nor are they at the center of the opening. They are at each corner where the nitrous stream seems to be weaker. I'm not sure if thats a good thing or not? I do know for sure that I have small venturies in the front and big ones in the rear.


In my newbie opinion, I suspect the problem has something to do with phase change because of the nitrous path/turns within the block?

btw: I was'nt blinded by the static bling in the vid. (The color purple and rock music don't make products better. :lol: )

Rich :scared:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:23 pm 
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i did mention the fuel to trev as it seems a funny way to mix it , if it even mixes...(i cant see why the nos wouldnt blow the fuel back up the solenoid if there both plumbed in same hole)..but he said he hadnt even got as far as thinking about fuel cuz the nitrous alone is so bad.
so its nitrous issue hes after but im sure the whole thing will be eaten alive by the end :)

i reckon its the music still hes tryin to trick us :lol: :lol:

wyndanthingimajig or woteva yes especially when its `outa control outa control` which it is :) bloody music wont get out my ead!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:07 pm 
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I haven't considered the fuel or the mixing as there isn't enough info or demonstrations to base any conclusions on and again (contrary to popular opinion), I base my comments on factual observations not some inept sense of reason as most of my critics do!!!

We only have enough info from the demo to make conclusions about the nitrous delivery, so that's what this thread is confined to.

The comment about the real world application is valied and I was surprised that this sales demo was less practical than even my first demo of smooooth progressive control (the one propelling the model car just to show the degree of control the new system had and was never intended as a professional sales aid), as it would have made more sense to show the system on a complete manifold (with carb) and show the equal flow of nitrous (if indeed it was equal) from the runners.
Maybe the fact that they used such a vague and ineffectual type of demonstration indicates that the plate doesn't do a very good job of producing an even distribution.

With regard to the cause of the problem I can once again confirm that some of the cause of the problem is phase change but here's another clue, there are 2 more forces involved at 2 different locations in the plate that are responsible for the different volumes of liquid nitrous flowing from the plate. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:20 pm 
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well in that case ill stick to my 1st observation where if flows highest just next to where it enters and then prbally at the opposte side when it smacks ito itself. i spose teoretically i might have thought after initial switch on the pressure would equalise around all the holes but ive been here long enuff to know the simple answer isnt always the case. id guess thats what they they want you to think???

add some phase change (wow i can use that in a senrence from now on without making a fool of myself) :lol: for good measure

i guess its `outa control outa control` he he you will all be humming it soon :twisted: :twisted:

ill bet theres something else and it will seem obvious after trev or loopy point it out but at the mo ill have put faith in my myself. :P

is compression one of the forces? i did chemistry not physics :lol: or is the gas expanding cuz of the phase change further into plate (pressurising???) making the differnce.. that really is clutching at straws now. :? :? :?

i can recite the periodic table, although remembering atomic weights might be stretching it

hydrogen helium lithium berilium...... no its not helping me at all :lol: :lol: 7 and 8 are the best ones ;)

i tougfht of a force decelleration, again ill shut up now

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Last edited by Alfaluva on Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:36 pm 
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You're almost there now, just a tweek to what you've posted and the third force determined before you have the full explanation. So here's another clue for you, imagine you were a ball travelling at high speed down a tube and the tube went round a sharp corner. Do you think you (the ball) would be applying more pressure to the outter wall (still inside the tube though) or the inner wall of the inside of the tube?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:55 pm 
I love it when everyone gets all carried away with technical stuff like "phase change" but ignores the simple stuff.
After all, if the mistakes looked that obvious they must be intentional, right ?

In other words, how can a "newbie" know more than ZEX ? ;)

Trev, as fair as you're trying to be, we have seen part of the fuel delivery side and it didn't need to be connected to see it either. :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:07 pm 
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ahah so unless ive missed completely ur thinking (knowing) is that as nitrous travells around the bend its at the opposite side to the jets ie the outside.....so i spose if the liquid is forced that side....with a bit of phase change ;) u end up with gas or some gas at least at the jet side!!

an :lol: outward force `friction` hurra thats it....i think although a niggly voice tell me people think that but its an inward force but anyway regardless!!!

pats self on back to early :lol: :lol:

liquid goes supacritical on the inside of bend am i gettin cocky now, sorry....i know im just plain wrong

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:19 pm 
Alfaluva wrote:
liquid goes supacritical on the inside of bend am i gettin cocky now, sorry....i know im just plain wrong

Good, you are wrong and "supercritical" is a whole other thread but it shows you're trying.
Hmmm, actually that would make a good thread. I'll need to get a few things first so it'll have to wait a few weeks.

Stop thinking so hard and trying to be overly technical, Trev wouldn't make you climb a mountain without a guide so it must simply be a hill you can't see the top of.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:04 am 
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your right loopy i keep seeing that fuel inlet instead, cant shake it of my head.
iwas also thimkin your cavitation thread fits when it goes round these bends, but if it simple then it aint that :lol: :lol: :lol:

time to get some sleep i reckon
every action has a equal and opposite reaction............hmmn so it might be on the inside GET TO BED!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

i take it thats why the corner jets are so useless then ? OI GET TO BED :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:01 pm 
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Wouldn't the design cause a lot of turbulence where the nitrous enters the plate, straight into the flat surface and then getting squeezed out of the nearest holes? Seems like the rest of the jetting points (hole thingies) only get the nitrous that couldn't make it out of the first lot.

When I first looked at it I thought it seemed okay, but looking at it a few times and starting thinking about the actual flow of the nitrous, I've started to realise it really is a bit pants :)

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