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 Post subject: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions inside)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Hello all!
I am newbie to N2O systems but I decided to install one into my Honda CB-1 :)
It's a 1990 year old 4-cylinder carburator bike that is free from any "smart" electrics (no ECU, TPS, MAP, etc).
Stock carbs are going to be replaced with Keihin FCR, stock CDI and coils are going to be replaced with Dyna 2000.
My current N20 kit consists of:
- SB75 base kit with venom injectors;
- Max Extreme V2 controller;
- N20 gauge + dash mount kit (t-piece + thread converter);
- Dynojet WB2 AFR module + AFR gauge;
- N20 and fuel transducers.

As I said I have almost zero experience in installing N20 system, so I have a lot of stupid questions.
I will be happy if you will find time to answer them without beating me :)

I will start from simple things:

1) Threads dimensions and sealant...
My kit includes 5mm and 4mm nylon pipes.
What is correct thread size for 5mm olives nuts? Is it M10x1?
What is correct thread size for N2O gauge? Is it 1/8 BSPT ?
N2O dash mount kit consists of T-Pice, thread convertor and 5 nylon O-rings:
Image
Does T-Pice have the same thread size on all ends? Is it M10x1?
Where should be nylon O-rings used?
N2O gauge manual says that it is recomended to apply thread sealant.
Is Prematex #59214 acceptable for this purpose? (t 204 C, 700BAR)

2) Fuel supply.
I am going to use additional fuel pump for N2O system, so there is no need to use fuel T-piece from kit.
I want to use some union to connect 8mm fuel pipe directly to fuel solenoid.
Something like this:
Image

This union on the photo have thread size G1/8 which seems to be the wrong thread.
Should it be M10x1?
If I will use such union are there any additional requirements for it? (tapered thread, internal cone, etc)
Is there a need to use 5mm olive for sealant between such union and solenoid?

Thats all for now.
More stupid questions will appear as I will move in the N20 system installation.
Thanks in advance and sorry for my English.


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:36 pm 
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Continuing question 2):
Is it OK to use usual fuel rubber pipe between fuel solenoid and additional fuel pump?
Which pressure should be between additional fuel pump and fuel solenoid (I am going to use kit for additional ~30hp)?


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:54 pm 
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Velos wrote:
Hello all!

Welcome to the forum and the world of WoN!

I am newbie to N2O systems but I decided to install one into my Honda CB-1 :)
It's a 1990 year old 4-cylinder carburator bike that is free from any "smart" electrics (no ECU, TPS, MAP, etc).
Stock carbs are going to be replaced with Keihin FCR, stock CDI and coils are going to be replaced with Dyna 2000.
My current N20 kit consists of:
- SB75 base kit with venom injectors;
- Max Extreme V2 controller;
- N20 gauge + dash mount kit (t-piece + thread converter);
- Dynojet WB2 AFR module + AFR gauge;
- N20 and fuel transducers.

It appears that you are all set for a serious increase in power, given being new to nitrous. But you've chosen wisely!

As I said I have almost zero experience in installing N20 system, so I have a lot of stupid questions.

We love question around here, so no worries and feel free to ask!
I will be happy if you will find time to answer them without beating me :)

I will certainly attempt to do so.

I will start from simple things:

1) Threads dimensions and sealant...
My kit includes 5mm and 4mm nylon pipes.
What is correct thread size for 5mm olives nuts? Is it M10x1?
Yes.

What is correct thread size for N2O gauge? Is it 1/8 BSPT ?
Yes, it is 1/8 BSPT

N2O dash mount kit consists of T-Pice, thread convertor and 5 nylon O-rings:
Image
Does T-Pice have the same thread size on all ends? Is it M10x1?
The T-piece accepts the 5mm nuts for the nylon pipe.

Where should be nylon O-rings used?

The o-rings are supposed to be used with the thread adapter for connections that are not mechanically sealed. The T-Piece and compression fittings should not need the o-rings.

N2O gauge manual says that it is recomended to apply thread sealant.
Is Prematex #59214 acceptable for this purpose? (t 204 C, 700BAR)

Yes it can be used, but I prefer the 54540, which is blue (medium strength) and lower strength if ever the fitting needs to be removed.

2) Fuel supply.
I am going to use additional fuel pump for N2O system, so there is no need to use fuel T-piece from kit.
I want to use some union to connect 8mm fuel pipe directly to fuel solenoid.
Something like this:
Image

This union on the photo have thread size G1/8 which seems to be the wrong thread.
Should it be M10x1?

The threads are not compatible with each other. You must remove the inlet adapter (union) and fit the barbed fitting instead and this will result in what you want to achieve.

If I will use such union are there any additional requirements for it? (tapered thread, internal cone, etc)
There is no need for it if you're fitting the barb.

Is there a need to use 5mm olive for sealant between such union and solenoid?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say but there is no olive between the inlet adapter (union) and the Pusloid, they are simply threaded together and sealed with the thread sealer that you mentioned above.

Thats all for now.
More stupid questions will appear as I will move in the N20 system installation.
I look forward to your questions.

Thanks in advance and sorry for my English.
You're English is fine to me. :yes:


Regards,
Alex T.

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:00 am 
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Velos wrote:
Continuing question 2):
Is it OK to use usual fuel rubber pipe between fuel solenoid and additional fuel pump?
Yes you can use rubber fuel pipe, given it's rated to handle the pressures from the pump.

Which pressure should be between additional fuel pump and fuel solenoid (I am going to use kit for additional ~30hp)?

That depends on the jets you're using and the pressure at the inlet of the fuel Pulsoid. Here are common pump pressure jettings.

40 psi = 25 Fuel/60 Nitrous
5 psi = 60 Fuel/ 60 Nitrous


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:14 pm 
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Hello Alex!
Thank you for your replies!
Just to be sure that we understand each other right:

Image

1 - that's what i call "union". It is not from WON kit. I bought it in our local store but as we have figured out - I have missed with thread size (it has G1/8'').

My plan is to make my own (CNC) unit like 1 with barbed end (for rubber pipe) and with a base like 4 (M10x1 + seat for olive). Then install it into pulsoid's inlet port (2) with using olive 3 for sealant.

Quote:
The threads are not compatible with each other. You must remove the inlet adapter (union) and fit the barbed fitting instead and this will result in what you want to achieve.


Am I right that your suggestion is to remove pulsoid's inlet prot 2 and directly insert there my current union (barded fitting)1? Does it mean that pulsoid's inlet seat have G1/8'' thread?


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:06 pm 
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You can avoid machining anything because the solution is simple (now that I understand what you mean).

1) Since you're not using the Tee for fuel supply, you can remove 1 barb (union) from the Tee (5). That has the correct threads and size to be inserted into the Pulsoid.

2) Remove the inlet adapter (2) and insert the barb (union from Tee [1]). This will give you the correct connections. DO NOT use the olive (3) as a seal because it will not work and could cause fuel blockage, instead use the Permatex thread sealer.

There is no need for the olive (3) or the nut (4) to do this.

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Turbobox wrote:
... and insert the barb (union from Tee [1])...

I think [1] should be [5] in fact (according to my picture above).

Thank you very much for explanation. I supposed that you were talking about barbed fitting from Tee so I have included it on the photo with a number :)
Those metric threads (which may in addition be tapered) have bowled up my brain :)

My next questions will be about D-Block.

3) Flow corrector
All manuals say that there should be a "flow corrector/plastic restrictor" in the short N20 elbow.
But my kit doesn't contain any "flow corrector":

Image

Does it mean that this corrector is now "integrated" in the elbow or it have been lost/forgotten during package delivery?

4) D-Block mounting
I have read almost all manuals from here and I still can't get one thing:
Quote:
Whenever possible the injectors should be mounted in the underside of the runners with the D-Block mounted below them, so the pipes run up hill.

Where is "underside of the runners" in my case?
Does it mean this:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Velos wrote:
Turbobox wrote:
... and insert the barb (union from Tee [1])...

I think [1] should be [5] in fact (according to my picture above).

Thank you very much for explanation. I supposed that you were talking about barbed fitting from Tee so I have included it on the photo with a number :)
Those metric threads (which may in addition be tapered) have bowled up my brain :)

My next questions will be about D-Block.

3) Flow corrector
All manuals say that there should be a "flow corrector/plastic restrictor" in the short N20 elbow.
But my kit doesn't contain any "flow corrector":

Image

Does it mean that this corrector is now "integrated" in the elbow or it have been lost/forgotten during package delivery?

It should be a separate plastic piece that slips into the elbow. Did you inspect the other elbow because it usually is in the end where the bracket and nut is on the D-Block.


4) D-Block mounting
I have read almost all manuals from here and I still can't get one thing:
Quote:
Whenever possible the injectors should be mounted in the underside of the runners with the D-Block mounted below them, so the pipes run up hill.

Where is "underside of the runners" in my case?
Does it mean this:

Image

Yes, that is what it is referring to. The idea is to allow the fuel levels to even out as it rises to provide an even distribution.

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:58 am 
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Turbobox wrote:
Velos wrote:
...
Does it mean that this corrector is now "integrated" in the elbow or it have been lost/forgotten during package delivery?

It should be a separate plastic piece that slips into the elbow. Did you inspect the other elbow because it usually is in the end where the bracket and nut is on the D-Block.


I have inspected every packet/elbow/etc.
There is no anything similar...

My dealer have sent me an answer from WON about missing corrector:

Quote:
It’s not always needed… but it’s not easy to try to explain all the reasons for or not in instructions.
As this is relatively low flow the nitrous is going to be more gaseous than higher doses which doesn’t get affected as bad. There should be a seal in there instead, when it’s assembled that will normally close up to restrict enough for that kind of flow.


So... Do I need to use nylon O-ring that came with T-Piece (my first photo in the first post)?

PS: may be it will be better to move my topic into "Motorcycle Nitrous Oxide (NOS / N2O) Discussion"?

Regards, Mike.


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:00 pm 
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Velos wrote:
Turbobox wrote:
Velos wrote:
...
Does it mean that this corrector is now "integrated" in the elbow or it have been lost/forgotten during package delivery?

It should be a separate plastic piece that slips into the elbow. Did you inspect the other elbow because it usually is in the end where the bracket and nut is on the D-Block.


I have inspected every packet/elbow/etc.
There is no anything similar...

My dealer have sent me an answer from WON about missing corrector:

Quote:
It’s not always needed… but it’s not easy to try to explain all the reasons for or not in instructions.
As this is relatively low flow the nitrous is going to be more gaseous than higher doses which doesn’t get affected as bad. There should be a seal in there instead, when it’s assembled that will normally close up to restrict enough for that kind of flow.


So... Do I need to use nylon O-ring that came with T-Piece (my first photo in the first post)?

PS: may be it will be better to move my topic into "Motorcycle Nitrous Oxide (NOS / N2O) Discussion"?

Regards, Mike.



Ah, yes. I totally forgot that this is a smaller bike system so, yes the answer from WoN is correct. Head their instrustion and you'll be closer to having that awesome nitrous power, courtesy of WoN. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Hello again :)
My rebuilding is in progress. Current stage: engine assembly.
Time for N2O installation is coming soon.
So I have new stupid questions.

1) D-Block inlet ports orientation
From one hand inlet ports should be positioned centrally to the D-Block exits and have a straight line between pulsoid's outlet ports.
From the other hand inlet ports should be inserted into D-Block's body "to the end" for sealant.
Is it acceptable to leave some thread's rounds for achieving correct position?
I mean that if I will screw inlet ports to it's maximum I will not get the correct orientation...

2) D-Block outlet ports orientation
Manual says:

Quote:
When using 4 way D-Blocks, arrange the outlets so the pairs closest
together point to each end of the engine.


What does it mean?

This:
Image

Or this:
Image

3) Bottle refillment
My kit includes 5mm olives for connecting bottle to pulsoid.
As far as I understand it can be used only one time (same as for pulsoid's outlet port for jet changing).

Is there any option for bottle connection to refill it without the need to change anything?
Or should make my own stock of 4mm and 5mm olives? :)

4) Ignition timing retard
I am going to use Dyna2000 which has retard option.
Does it really necessary for 400ccm to retard ignition during N2O activation?
CB-1 has 11,5 compression raito, it's advance at idle is 16 degrees.

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Velos wrote:
Hello again :)
My rebuilding is in progress. Current stage: engine assembly.
Time for N2O installation is coming soon.
So I have new stupid questions.

1) D-Block inlet ports orientation
From one hand inlet ports should be positioned centrally to the D-Block exits and have a straight line between pulsoid's outlet ports.
From the other hand inlet ports should be inserted into D-Block's body "to the end" for sealant.
Is it acceptable to leave some thread's rounds for achieving correct position?
I mean that if I will screw inlet ports to it's maximum I will not get the correct orientation...

You can apply some thread sealant so that you can back off the fitting just enough to achieve the correct orientation to fit. The fitting will be sealed once the sealant dries.

2) D-Block outlet ports orientation
Manual says:

Quote:
When using 4 way D-Blocks, arrange the outlets so the pairs closest
together point to each end of the engine.


What does it mean?

This:
Image

Or this:
Image

The second photo is what it's referring to: this keeps the line length as short as possible.

3) Bottle refillment
My kit includes 5mm olives for connecting bottle to pulsoid.
As far as I understand it can be used only one time (same as for pulsoid's outlet port for jet changing).

Is there any option for bottle connection to refill it without the need to change anything?
Or should make my own stock of 4mm and 5mm olives? :)

You can make your own bit of pipe that can attach to the bottle for refilling. I don't know if the shops in your area will have the adapter to fit the nylon pipe so I would find that out. If they use the 4AN style connection, then you can obtain the adapter from WoN (that's the method I use).

4) Ignition timing retard
I am going to use Dyna2000 which has retard option.
Does it really necessary for 400ccm to retard ignition during N2O activation?
CB-1 has 11,5 compression raito, it's advance at idle is 16 degrees.

It depends on your engine design and how much nitrous you are adding. There are many factors that will require ignition retard and generally, the more nitrous you add to the engine, the more retard will be required (up to a point). You can add higher octane fuels, reduce compression ratio, add water injection, run alcohol, etc. to reduce the amount of required retard. In summary, it all depends on what the spark plugs tell you after a nitrous pass. Even sharp edges on the piston and head can cause hot spots that will further require less timing.

Each engine is different so there is no specific answer.

Edit: I remembered that you wanted to use about 30 bhp of nitrous on this engine. If your timing is fairly close to factory, then it's possible to not need any timing retard at all. Again, I have no experience with your particular engine so it would be wise to pull 2 degrees out initially, then check the spark plugs. If they show that the timing can be added back and if there is no sign of detonation, then you can add the timing back and retest. You can keep adding timing until the engine no longer makes power or starts to knock, then back off a few degrees and you'll be at the optimum.


Thanks in advance.
8)

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:30 am 
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Hello, Alex.
Thank you again for finding time to read my questions :)

About bottle refilling:
I already have this:
http://www.noswizard.com/4an-to-5mm-m-m-adapter.html
Our local stores use 4an for refilling.
But to use it, I have to disconnect 5mm nylon pipe and this means that I will need new olive when I will connect it back.

May be there exists some option like this:
Image


About ignition retard:
Stock CB-1's engine has 57 hp.
I am changing camshafts, carburator (keihin fcr) and exhaust, which in total should give ~68 hp. This mods require to set ignition advance to 18 degrees on idle and 20 degrees of full advance.
With N2O I plan to add 25-30 hp. Will retard for 4 degrees during nitrous activation will be enough in my case by your opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Velos wrote:
Hello, Alex.
Thank you again for finding time to read my questions :)

About bottle refilling:
I already have this:
http://www.noswizard.com/4an-to-5mm-m-m-adapter.html
Our local stores use 4an for refilling.
But to use it, I have to disconnect 5mm nylon pipe and this means that I will need new olive when I will connect it back.

I think you mean that if you disconnect the 5mm pipe from the bottle that you have to get a new olive, if that's what you mean then it's not necessary. The olive is crushed once and then it's reused over an over: it's not a one time use item.

The fitting you have there is all that you need to fill the bottle, then simply reconnect the nylon pipe with the same olive.



About ignition retard:
Stock CB-1's engine has 57 hp.
I am changing camshafts, carburator (keihin fcr) and exhaust, which in total should give ~68 hp. This mods require to set ignition advance to 18 degrees on idle and 20 degrees of full advance.
With N2O I plan to add 25-30 hp. Will retard for 4 degrees during nitrous activation will be enough in my case by your opinion?

Sounds like a good start, but the only real test is to read the spark plugs. This requires installing a new set, making a half track pass, then immediately shutting down the engine and pulling those plugs for inspection. Do not drive to the pits with them or else the readings will not be erased from the plug. Then repeat the test for a full pass if the plugs are good from the half-track test.Once you make a full pass, read the plugs again.

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Turbobox wrote:
I think you mean that if you disconnect the 5mm pipe from the bottle that you have to get a new olive, if that's what you mean then it's not necessary. The olive is crushed once and then it's reused over an over: it's not a one time use item.

The fitting you have there is all that you need to fill the bottle, then simply reconnect the nylon pipe with the same olive.

That's exactly what I mean...
Wow... You have surprised me... Not a one-time-use...
I thought it like an olive on a braking reinforced hose that can be used only once...
Good news!

Sounds like a good start, but the only real test is to read the spark plugs. This requires installing a new set, making a half track pass, then immediately shutting down the engine and pulling those plugs for inspection. Do not drive to the pits with them or else the readings will not be erased from the plug. Then repeat the test for a full pass if the plugs are good from the half-track test.Once you make a full pass, read the plugs again.

OK, that's what I am going to do. But I plan to do it on a dyno.
I am lucky and I have one (dyno) in my current workshop :)


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Dyno works just fine. Just make sure to repeat the process at the strip where conditions and loads will differ from the dyno.

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:11 am 
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Hello.
I hope it will be my very last question about D-Block and pipes mounting/routing.
The best position for D-Block and pulsoids position will be:

Image

As far I understand from this document http://www.noswizard.com/pdf/optimum_distribution.pdf restrictor should solve the problem of uneven flow distribution.
So is it acceptable to orientate D-Block's inlet port in this manner with using a restrictor?

Image

And some questions about MaxExteme.

1) I don't have a gear position sensor (only neutral sensor).
Do I need to connect neutral sensor to R11 input?

2) Dyna2000 have an input for Retard ignition map activation.
Is there any appropriate Output in MaxExtreme for such purpose?


Thanks in advance.
Mike.


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Velos wrote:
Hello.
I hope it will be my very last question about D-Block and pipes mounting/routing.
The best position for D-Block and pulsoids position will be:

Image

As far I understand from this document http://www.noswizard.com/pdf/optimum_distribution.pdf restrictor should solve the problem of uneven flow distribution.
So is it acceptable to orientate D-Block's inlet port in this manner with using a restrictor?

Yes, you can clock it in any position that fits given that the pipe stays straight for 2 inches before entering the inlet elbow.

Image

And some questions about MaxExteme.

1) I don't have a gear position sensor (only neutral sensor).
Do I need to connect neutral sensor to R11 input?
No, it's not necessary but it is much more precise in case of a missed shift where the maxy may assume it's in the next gear when it's not. Without the gear input, each time the trigger is turned 'on' - 'off' - 'on', it's counted as a gear change.

2) Dyna2000 have an input for Retard ignition map activation.
Is there any appropriate Output in MaxExtreme for such purpose?
Either of the 2 outputs [L5 and L10] will trigger the Dyna2000, and they can be adjusted in the settings when to come on, turning on the retard box above 50% power, for example.


Thanks in advance.
Mike.

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Hello Alex.
Thank you again for your explanation!
One more about MaxExtreme:
Does R12 rpm input expect 2 pulse per crankshaft revolution?


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:41 pm 
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It will accept a wide range of pulse varieties. All you need to do is adjust the number of cylinders to match up to the engine rpm.

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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:23 am 
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Turbobox wrote:
It will accept a wide range of pulse varieties. All you need to do is adjust the number of cylinders to match up to the engine rpm.

If I'll set "No Cylinders" = 4, does it mean, that MaxExtreme will expect to achieve 2 impulses per crankshaft revolution?

This schema http://www.noswizard.com/pdf/max_v2_wiring.pdf contains ignition coil as a possible source for R12 input.
Moto ignition coils usually give 2 impulses on a 4 cylinder engines.


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 Post subject: Re: Dummy, N2O and 400ccm motorcycle (stupid questions insid
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:00 pm 
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You need to input the number of cylinders needed to obtain the correct rpm, but sometimes unique ignition systems could require a different number of cylinders to input. For example, if you put the number of cylinders as '4' and your rpm reads twice what it should, then you need to input '8' to obtain the correct reading.

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