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 Post subject: How much is to much
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:25 pm 
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Posts: 4
Hi all,
This is my first forum encounter so if I muck this up don't be surprised.
I have seen some good information sharing which is great to see and I hope someone could shed some light for me.
I am new to using NOS and unfortunately I bought one of those US kits (you live and learn) but as I will soon be upgrading my project I will start converting across to WON gear.
I have an issue with not knowing how much gas I can throw at my engine , the more so called experts you talk to the more the answers vary.
I did the Aussie approach and got the biggest nos kit and work it out from there.
The engine is a 430 cui SBC (400 stroker)
GM tall deck rocket block with raised cam, wider pan rails, thicker deck ect ect
Cola forged crank, Lunati Pro-Mod rods (good for 850hp @8500rpm )
JE custom nitrous pistons 10:1 comp (low comp street engine)
5 stage dry sump, 500hp NOS kit,
custom tunnel ram intake electronic fuel injection twin 1000 cfm throttle bodies
Racer pro cylinder heads.
engine made a lazy 560hp on a soft tune with mild roller cam.
The engine went great in my old Monaro but I have pulled it out to put it in a dragster (will add pics)
Put it back to carb 830 mighty demon and made a set of blower pipes for it and had a bastard of a time fitting the dry sump pump.
I have a controller for it and want to start with a 250 shot and if I can work my way up a bit if this is possible .
I have been told that rule of thumb is 50% of what you made naturally aspirated but I have also been told you can bump this up more using a controller in the higher revs?
Any help would be great
Thanks steve


Last edited by monarosteve on Mon May 04, 2015 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 2:18 pm 
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Hi Steve,

Welcome to my forum and I'm pleased to hear that you've;

1) Appreciated that there are far too many 'experts' out there

2) Seen that there is GOOD information provided on my forum

3) Realised that you chose the wrong nitrous system

All of which means you're at least trying to move in the right direction despite a bad start. :yes:

Your engine sounds like it could handle a decent amount of nitrous, as long as it was delivered by a CORRECTLY DESIGNED nitrous system. The problem is that as you already appreciate, you are currently lacking that key ingredient to achieve such high levels of reliable power.

The main problems with ALL other nitrous kits are;

1) Nitrous reaches the engine much quicker than the fuel does - this causes an initial extremely lean condition (which is worse the bigger the jets you use), that puts the engine in 'thermal shock' (on the edge of detonation) for the entire run, which ultimately will result in engine component failure.
This is NOT the case with WON, as our controller has a nitrous only delay feature to ensure that even a badly fitted system will not suffer from it.

2) Distribution is TERRIBLE - using jets at the nozzles is the way they 'ATTEMPT' to correct inherently poor distribution due to a lack of correct components/system design and although that helps, it still fails to do what correctly designs components/systems can achieve in that regard.
This is NOT the case with WON, as ALL our components and systems are DESIGNED to achieve PERFECT distribution and to prove it we do NOT locate our metering jets at the nozzles, we just locate a single metering jet at each Pulsoid outlet.

3) Loss of density is substantial - this has a number of detrimental effect but the end result is that an engine will make less power from a given amount of nitrous and it will have a much lower power limit, before detonation sets in and kills it.
This is NOT the case with WON, as ALL our components and systems are DESIGNED to minimise loss of density.

As a consequence of all the above problems with ALL other brands of nitrous kits, ALL engines will be limited to adding much less nitrous, than they would be able to handle with a WON system.

To make matters worse, for every engine/component there is a variation in capability, so one con rod might be able to handle say 100 HP while the one next to it might be able to handle 110 HP and there is no way of knowing what every part can handle, until it is too late.

With all the above in mind, it is impossible for anyone to give you the kind of answer you want to your question and that would even be the case if you had a WON system, as all I could say for sure, is it would be higher with WON than what you already have.

It's for these reasons that we always advise our customers to start at a modest power level and work up in relatively small steps, because that at least should help you to get familiar with what the engine should sound like when its happy and when it starts to sound any different, you need to stop and investigate, before killing something.

With regards to adding a controller, yes that does increase the level of power that your engine can handle BUT with ALL other kits it exacerbates some of the problems mentioned above, like the fact that each time the solenoids are opened (pulsed), the nitrous reaches the engine long before the fuel (and also gets way out of sync), so that obviously doesn't help reliability.

Again this is NOT the case with a WON system, as we have specifically designed our Pulsoids for pulsing (hence the name) and we use other UNIQUE system features (jet location, pipe size, etc.) to achieve reliable results when pulsing.

BTW the reason you can add more as rpm increases, is because as rpm rises the induction time reduces and therefore LESS nitrous would flow into the cylinder on EACH INDUCTION CYCLE, when using a FIXED nitrous delivery. If your engine can handle say 50 HP at say 1,000 rpm it should IN THEORY (excluding the fact that inertia loadings increase exponentially) be able to handle 250 HP at 5,000 rpm. While this is generally not the case IN PRACTICE, there is a middle ground that does apply.

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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 5:09 pm 
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Thanks Trev I will try that and see how I go.
I will try to add a link to some photos of where I was and where I am at
Cheers
http://s284.photobucket.com/user/monaro ... u.jpg.html
if this link doesn't work please let me know
Cheers
steve


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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:26 pm 
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monarosteve wrote:
Thanks Trev I will try that and see how I go.
I will try to add a link to some photos of where I was and where I am at
Cheers
http://s284.photobucket.com/user/monaro ... u.jpg.html
if this link doesn't work please let me know
Cheers
steve


Looks like a lot of hard-earned money in this project, which is looking great by the way!

But, you have the absolute WORST distribution blocks on that NOS system that you could seriously damage those expensive parts! And that's just the LEAST of it.

No worries, though.

The wizard will set you free, sir! :yes:


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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:25 pm 
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Best of luck with that Steve.

What the hell are all those pipes in the boot for and how do you have so many bottles connecting together?

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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:03 am 
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Hi guys,
Yep I agree 100% those blocks are crap, hard to get a nice fluid motion from something like that. if I can adapt the shower heads to what I have would be a good start. I will only run this set up until I get used to the dragster (maybe 3-4 meets). changing to a 18 degree set up/ 871 blower and some nitrous. Methanol Pulsoids will be needed as well as some other goodies so change is on the way.
As for my boot , got a bit carried away with the bottles but I found this cool looking double bottle bracket and had to have it. so with a couple of bottles in hand and a swanky bracket I couldn't decide which side to put it on so I got another set.( I just have a thing for things looking even). only 1 bottle is hooked up.
All the plumbing is the 3 fuel systems I decided that I needed to complement the bottle overkill.
1 is for the bosch 044 pump and its return.
next is the BG400-2 and its returns and the last is for the holley pump keeping the fuel cell full from the drop tank and its return as well as the filter/separator mounted on the side.
I just wanted some sort of race car look to it and got a couple of lengths of 1/2 inch s/s pipe and started bending.
I know it could have been done better / cheaper but I think it looks pretty cool and I wanted to make something special that I hadn't seen done before.
the look on peoples faces when they peer in the boot is priceless. some go on about what a waste but it's original and I enjoyed making it.
Cheers
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:54 pm 
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Location: Doncaster
We can offer you a front end conversion that would still use your Foggers (although that in itself isn't the best thing to do) but it would get rid of the generic solenoids, nasty steel tubes and garbage distribution blocks.

Our Pulsoids aren't ideally suited to use with alcohol (as the bodies are anodised alloy which will eventually corrode when used with alky), but as long as you flush the fuel system through with ordinary fuel from time to time, they will be OK and that would also help the pump etc. to survive longer.

Like you I like to have things even, so I appreciate your thinking but using the term 'overkill' is an understatement, when used to describe your fuel system. ;)

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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:25 pm 
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Thanks Trev,
I will give you a call when I am closer to needing them and we will have a bit of a yarn about what would be best.
Cheers
steve


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 Post subject: Re: How much is to much
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:20 pm 
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Ready whenever you are Steve. :yes:

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30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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