NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

Nitrous Oxide ( NOS / N20 ) Forum
 
It is currently Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:07 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Braided Vs WON nylon
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:46 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18625
Location: Doncaster
Before I make the rest of the post I must emphasise that the nylon pipe we sell is manufactured to our own unique specification and is vastly superior to any other pipe (that may 'appear' to be the same), and is not available from any other company.
Therefore anyone claiming to know the specification of our pipe or claiming that the pipe is unsuitable for nitrous use and can't handle nitrous pressure is LYING!!!

We recently had a batch of pipe manufactured with our company name and safe working pressure printed on it to prove the pipe is unique to our company and to prove it's pressure rating. Unfortunately after some extensive testing we discovered that the colouring and printing process both reduced the strength of the pipe and although it was still rated at well over what we needed, we still decided to drop it as we wanted the biggest safety margin possible, so we reverted back to unprinted black pipe.

A lot has been claimed elsewhere on the Internet, about the suitability (or lack of it) of our nylon pipe compared with braided hose, so for anyone who is interested and for anyone with the intelligence to absorb the following, here are the FACTS that PROVE our argument against such rubbish.

1) Some people claim that braided lines are stronger than our nylon but this depends on what you take as a datum.
For example;

i) If you dropped the same weight on both pipes, our nylon pipe would resist being crushed more readily than braided would.

ii) If you snag a strand of the outer braiding of braided hose (which is very easy to do), the pipe becomes very weak, because the inner ptfe sleeve is far weaker than our nylon pipe. It should also be kept in mind that you are more likely to snag the outer braid whilst fitting, than damage our nylon pipe in a "similar" way.

2) The claim that braided hose can handle more pressure than OUR WON nylon pipe, USED to be true but that is NO LONGER THE CASE!!! After technical advances in the manufacture of WON nylon pipe, the last batch we had manufactured, has a burst pressure in excess of 8,000 psi, compared approx. 6,000 for braided hose. That being said, there is no "need" to use a pipe that can handle more than a 'safe' excess margin anyway, which even our older versions of nylon pipe were capable of. I've never seen Nitrous above 1,100psi in the UK, so what's the point of using pipe than can handle 6,000psi, when 3,500psi is more than adequate, so even IF braided could handle higher pressure it's of no consequence.

3) The claim that braided isn't as badly affected by heat is rubbish, the outer braid actually "absorbs, conducts and holds" heat around the inner weak ptfe pipe. A braided pipe will be more likely to burst due to heat than you'd expect, as many people think that the outer braid is indestructible, so they're not concerned about keeping it away from hot components. The worst example we've ever seen of this being the case, was of a company that had actually 'attached' the braided hose to the exhaust system from the front to back of the car. :shock: :x

4) When the pipe (braided or otherwise) is routed near to hot engine parts, it causes a MASSIVE reduction in the density of the LIQUID nitrous and turns most (if not ALL) of it to GAS. Feeding gaseous nitrous to an engine will cause it to make much less power (if any) and it will cause it to suffer detonation, so heating a supply pipe is obviously to be avoided.

5) The fittings used with some braided pipe are no bigger than the bore of our nylon pipe and that's the core of the problem. The braided pipe itself is MUCH bigger and as the liquid passes through the smaller bore fittings, it expands and dilutes (suffers a loss in density or phase change for our US 'experts'), as it passes into the large bore pipe. It then has to suffer a further density, pressure and flow drop (due to turbulence) as it passes out of the pipe and through the smaller bore fitting at the other end. NONE of this applies to our WON nylon pipe, as the fittings are external to the pipe, so the flow path from one end of the pipe to the other has a CONSTANT size, which helps maintain a constant liquid density.

6) The MUCH larger bore of the braided pipe acts as a reservoir for the initial gaseous (NOT LIQUID) build-up. This results in a "dramatic" loss in performance if it is not purged (wasted) from the pipe prior to "every" use. The very small bore of our pipe means there is minimal gas build-up, so a purge (waste) solenoid is not needed, therefore no nitrous is wasted. This reservoir in a braided hose is also subjected to the constant consequences of the heat generated by the vehicle, dramatically reducing the density of the nitrous flow on an ongoing basis.

7) Braided pipe often comes in a fixed length and you have to coil up the surplus, which exaggerates the problems mentioned in 6), resulting in an unnecessarily larger waste of gas. Our nylon pipe can be cut to the minimum required length, thus avoid this issue.

8) Braided pipe is too bulky to run inside the car, so it is usually run underneath the car (where it's very hot), which is obviously detrimental to performance for the reasons given above. The heat vaporises the nitrous flow (liquid) even more, producing more waste gas resulting in less power. Our pipe can be run with the wiring loom inside the car, where it is relatively cool to avoid such problems.

9) Whichever pipe you use, our pipe is far easier to run through the car than it is to route braided under the car.

10) Due to our pipe "looking" like it will melt, most people have enough common sense to route it well away from any heat source, resulting in the pipe (and more importantly the liquid nitrous) staying cooler, reducing the risk of the nitrous vaporising.
If our pipe were to burst (which is NOT dangerous), it means the route is wrong and needs more thought, thus preventing a power loss due to heat build up in the pipe.

11) At some point the pipe is likely to come into contact with electrical components. In the case of braided hose, it is likely to rub through the wires or insulation and cause a short circuit, resulting in an electrical FIRE which I've seen a couple of times. This is NOT even a low risk factor with our nylon pipe, as it's IMPOSSIBLE for nylon pipe to cause an electrical short circuit, as its an insulator.

12) Not only is nylon an electrical insulator but it is also a heat insulator, so it even reduces loss of density due to the ambient temperature being higher than the boiling point of nitrous.

13) Using a pipe that is 'just' capable of flowing as much nitrous as the engine can handle, is much better than using a pipe that can flow much more, as a higher flow pipe will have a bigger reservoir capacity and it will have a larger surface area, both of which cause a loss of density for the reasons given above.

14) Some people incorrectly assume that braided hose is fire resistant but that is certainly NOT the case. Furthermore, although the PTFE inner tube in braided hose has a melting point of 600 degrees that is only 75 degrees higher than our nylon pipe and contrary to expectations, the stainless braid does NOT help to protect the PTFE tube, as it actually helps it to melt, by holding heat in contact with the tube. Furthermore, as most materials (especially fuels) burn at temps well above 600 degrees, the difference in the melting points, is of little to no consequence anyway, as they will both melt very quickly/easily.

15) Most people also incorrectly believe that nitrous oxide will aggravate combustion and make a fire worse and while that is the case when nitrous is used at VERY LOW pressures, it is NOT the case when at high pressure and escaping from a burst pipe. I have actually had my vehicles saved from burning to the ground, by the nitrous supply hose bursting and EXTINGUISHING the fire, on a number of occasions, so even if braided hose was fire resistant, that would be another positive point for nylon pipe, as by bursting when subjected to heat, it will SAVE YOUR LIFE.

There are a couple of further minor benefits but if anyone can give me even one sensible and worthwhile advantage of braided pipe over our nylon pipe, I'd like to know of it, because as far as I'm concerned there isn't even one for power levels up to approx. 150 HP or up to 300 when dual Pulsoids and supply pipes are used.
This means I have 10+ positive and very good reasons for using our nylon pipe with zero good reasons for using braided.

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, we do offer braided hose for large power increases (but hope to have a nylon replacement for even that soon), because the only good reason for using braided pipe instead of nylon, is that until we find a suitable larger bore nylon pipe that can handle the pressure, we are limited by the bore of our current nylon pipe.

For optimum performance the best pipe for a specific system is a smooth bore pipe (WITHOUT changes to the internal id), with a bore size that can flow marginally more than the maximum jet size to be used is capable of.
It is also beneficial for the pipe to be made of an insulating material and to be kept as short as possible and ONLY OUR nylon pipe fulfills ALL those criteria.

With the correct combination of components fitted correctly, you shouldn't need a purge system and the system will;
i) hit softer making it more manageable
ii) be kinder on the engine and transmission
iii) ultimately make more power from a given amount of nitrous

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Last edited by Noswizard on Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Advertisement

Wizards of NOS Conact US
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:07 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18625
Location: Doncaster
Just to emphasize a point that the competiton seems to want to ignore,


WE DO OFFER BRAIDED HOSE IF PEOPLE INSIST ON HAVING IT OR IF THE RULES OF THE RACE CLASS FORCE THEM TO HAVE IT.

BUT GUESS WHAT, EVEN OUR BRAIDED HOSE IS BETTER THAN THE TYPE USED BY THE OTHER COMPANIES FOR THE FOLLOWING 4 REASONS;

1) WE SUPPLY THE SIZE THAT BEST SUITS YOUR POWER NEEDS RATHER THAN A ONE SIZE FITS ALL

2) IN SOME APPLICATIONS THIS MEANS IT'S SMALLER BORE THAN THE ONE SIZE FITS ALL PIPE USED IN OTHER KITS.

3) IT CAN BE SUPPLIED AT THE RIGHT LENGTH

4) WE CAN SUPPLY SPECIAL FITTINGS THAT REDUCE THE NECKING AT THE ENDS

I've printed this in CAPS because it seems most people don't want to accept these FACTS, so hopefully by EMPHASISING the text in CAPS it may get through to them! :mrgreen:

Then again nothing else has got through their thick skulls, so maybe it's just another waste of time.

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Last edited by Noswizard on Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:53 pm 
Offline
Learner

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:19 am
Posts: 26
Trev,

Will your nylon pipe expand and/or contract under high ( 950 + psi ) pressure nitrous flow ? Test on braided hose showed signs of expansion and contraction resulting in fluctuating pressure and possible phase changes. Nitrous manufacturers seem to think ( in my opinion ) nothing to worry about . It would seem that if you do not have control over nitrous flow then you surely do not have a handle on nitrous delivery. Your thoughts please....

Thanks,

John


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:07 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18625
Location: Doncaster
Hi John,

Good post and no my pipe does not contract or expand at the working pressure of nitrous, unlike braided pipe which expands under pressure. I will actually measure how much expansion (if I think on), the next time we're testing, so I can tell you by how much etc.

I do not turn a blind eye to any factor that could be detrimental to system performance, no matter how small, because it's the accumulated "minor" improvements in the design of the components in my systems, that result in a "major" performance advantage. :idea:

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:36 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18625
Location: Doncaster
Over the past 25+ years I have UNIQUELY used high pressure nylon pipe in preference to braided hose.

The governing bodies of Drag racing have implemented out dated rules relating to the use of nitrous oxide over that period, stating that only braided hose could be used on the Drag strip.

The IDIOT brigade took that to mean our nylon hose was inadequate for the job and as a consequence they've mouthed off about it at every opportunity and used it to then imply that the rest of the components in our systems are inadequate or in their words crap!


WELL THEY NO LONGER HAVE ANY CAUSE TO MAKE SUCH STATEMENTS.


Early last year the NHRA (one of the Major US Drag Racing governing bodies), put our nylon pipe through their stringent tests.

They were so pleased with the results that they gave it full approval for use in their events, stating that they were extremely happy with the results. They even specified that it was ONLY our nylon pipe that they were approving.

Last night I was invited to attend a tech meeting of the SPRC (the UK's main governing body for Drag racing), to discuss the use of nylon hose on race cars. After giving the 30+ strong committee a brief description of some of the advantages listed above, it was unanimously agreed to re-word the regulations to allow our nylon hose for use on Drag cars in official UK Drag racing events.

So as my old granddad used to say when he got one up on those that tried to put him down - STICK THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT. LOL

OUR NYLON PIPE IS NOW LEGAL FOR OFFICIAL DRAG RACE USE BOTH IN THE USA & THE UK!!!!

The IDIOT brigade who have made it their life's work to twist and manipulate the slightest opportunity to denigrate my products, will have to work a lot harder to justify their BULLSHIT statements in future. :twisted: :twisted:

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Last edited by Noswizard on Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:27 pm 
Offline
Learner

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Nottingham
Excellent!... :lol: :lol: bet you've been looking forward to clearing that one up once and for all.. :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:58 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18625
Location: Doncaster
eldoodarino wrote:
Excellent!... :lol: :lol: bet you've been looking forward to clearing that one up once and for all.. :D


I'd say that's probably the understatement of the decade. :twisted:

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:28 pm 
Offline
Wizard

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:45 pm
Posts: 3963
Location: Bucks
Another one ticked off the list eh Trev?

_________________
1975 MGB Rover V8 aka Slim Rabbit 9.62 @ 137.37 mph with 175 shot.
9.59 here I come !!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:09 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18625
Location: Doncaster
How true, still got a couple left before I can say I'm satisfied but we'll keep working on them. ;)

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:41 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18625
Location: Doncaster
I also should have mentioned that a member of the committee who had a great deal of expereince with the use of braided hose for nitrous use, was scathing about the reliability of braided hose and welcomed the use of my nylon hose, because it won't suffer the same problems he's experienced.

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:51 am 
Offline
Learner

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:12 am
Posts: 41
Nicely done! 8) :lol:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Braided Vs WON nylon
PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:25 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:49 pm
Posts: 4
Very interesting read. :yes:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

  • Advertisement
Wizards of NOS Sparkplugs
Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits