NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

Well Loopy, yes I have noticed a performance decline with dramtic purging: i.e. if the pressure gets up to 1400psi, on a very hot day for instance - which means a considerable amount of purging is mandatory to get the pressure down before launching the car. However I normally attributed this to simply having to 'bleed off too much of the nitrous reserve' . Yes, I do believe mph suffers when this is necessary, because bottle pressure simply falls more quickly - because there is less nitrous in the bottle at launch.
Now, where am I wrong on this one?


Ever felt that Nitrogen boosting made a lot of sense ? [/quote]

Loopy, it NEVER has for me. I simply can't afford the parts attrition, as I've seen it tried over the years. I was at the meet where Shannon Jenkins ran the 3.99 8th mile pass earlier this year. He was on boost and burned up more blessed parts at that meet, than I could likely replace in 2 years. I was, yet was not, impressed at the same time. Actually, there were at least a couple of nitrous cars at that meet that perhaps could have ran every bit as quick, or even quicker, if they'd had the budget just to 'fry' all the parts he did.

Actually the nitrous car that impressed me the most at that meet, went a 4.04 and was not in danger (and did Not) hurt anything at all in several passes. He could race - ultimately Jenkins really couldn't race (if I remember correctly, he ws beaten with a 4.18 because of all his engine carnage. I believe he bloody burned something in the engine, every single pass - that day. Imagine Johnny Barb or me being able to race that way. Well, there simply is no way either of us could.

No doubt speedtech probably spent 50 times more than they won that race. But, and this is important for marketing - they did exactly what they wanted to accomplish. He did run the first ever, 3 sec nitrous pass and they have been 'big-time' marketing off of it, ever since - and who can blame them?
Right, wrong or indifferent, for over a decade I have never seen or heard of a Pro Mod engine that didn't simply burn it's arse up, using nitrogen boost.

Good talking with you.
J.

[quote="Noswizard"][quote="dixiepromod"]

Well Loopy, yes I have noticed a performance decline with dramatic purging:
There's more to it than the lower volume of nitrous in the bottle, it's also down to the temp drop of the bottle and the lack of reservoir

Yes, I realize that temp drop affects this too.

Ever felt that Nitrogen boosting made a lot of sense ?


Those using them (including Speedtech) don't have the best designs or components for the job, nor do they have an adequate understanding of how best to use the nitrogen concept, as the results you've mentioned above prove. Having said that when I spoke to Shannon earlier this year (soon after the 3.99 run) he claimed the damaged parts had nothing to do with the nitrogen, but then he would wouldn't he. He wasn't feeling very talkative so very little more was said, it seems he's either a man of few words or he didn't want to risk saying something that might embarrass him.

From what I've seen of him, I don't think Shannon normally is a big talker (certainly no big BS-er) He in my mind is a consummate racer - lest someone in the U.S. think I was depreciating Shannon's run in my preceding post, I wasn't. No one else has done what he did, so that has to speak for itself. But as he implied, their goal was to run the first sub-four sec pass, and they didn't care how many parts they burned up, as long as they got the record. Not too many racers have the luxury of the crew, equipment, parts and finances to do that. Contrary to others here, I don't think he did it because of 'better nitrous technology' - That's all I meant.

Having said all that I'd ONLY use N-Boost on 1/8 and 1/4 vehicles AFTER they've gone as far as they can go using my other products, because N-Boost adds complexity and most people (like Jenkins) would run quicker if they used my nitrous system than they would adding nitrogen to any other nitrous set up.

Actually the nitrous car that impressed me the most at that meet, went a 4.04 and was not in danger (and did Not) hurt anything at all in several passes.
Who was that James?
Burton Auxier.

Find a way of purging off gas to reduce pressure, it works far better, especially if you do it with plenty of time ahead of you before your run



I'm not saying this to be a smartass, or rude, or disrespectful;
But this is the same as saying Trev makes the same nitrous "kit" as NX and puts a different sticker on it.
When you base a theory on a flawed observation you can only obtain a flawed theory.
The pressure boosting with nitrogen didn't burn anything up on its own and to be honest i'm a little suprised you'd think i'd recomend something that could cause you damage.
Now this isn't a nitrogen boosting thread, its about gas laws.
BUT
at the moment you race with high start pressures (lean mix) and low finish pressures (rich mix)
Totally ass about face for a fast et AND high terminal for which you need to start rich and end lean.
The first is a characteristic of stored nitrous use, the second could be the characteristic of nitrogen boosted nitrous use.
I say "could" because the nitrogen boosted nitrous "could" do anything you want as far as mixture / pressure goes.
Gradual richening, mixture maintenance, gradual leaning off..............
Pick your favourite poison basically.
The only "damage" danger comes from the fact a basic nitrogen boost wouldn't cool the motor off towards the end of the run with extra fuel............ If you required such a thing after starting off rich that is......

Fully agree Loopy.

I have a method of purging off gas but didn't want to mention too much about it here (as mentioned earlier), so you've let the cat peek out of the bag but at least I'm the only one who can do it, since I have the only bottle valves that will do what is required to achieve it.

Regards

No disagreement at all. Quite interesting.

Hi James,

I have 2 solutions to the 'gas' purging situation but one I'll email you about as I don't want it public knowledge just yet.

Our SPRV will achieve exactly what is required, as it will continuously maintain a set pressure by relieving JUST gaseous nitrous.

With regard to the way Pro mod racers start lean and then use the drop in pressure to save their engine, this is the reverse of what SHOULD be done and then using N-Boost it's possible to produce optimum performance for the whole run. As things stand it's a matter of compromising the entire run, so the engine is never running optimally.

Regards

Dixie > I'm really not half as green as I am cabbage looking you know.
MYpurging involves gas, is preferably done slowly and in plenty of time...............
Entirely possible even given YOUR racing circumstances.
YOUR purging involves liquid, is done very rapidly and immediately before a run, for the resulting mess please read the first 2 pages of this thread......................

But WTF to I know ?
I don't race 8 seconds do I ?



FLAWED observation = FLAWED theory
Why would anyone start lean and finish rich if they weren't in the desperate search for finish pressure ?
Deliberately "damage" the engine only to "save" it later ????
How about "save" it first and run close to "damage" later by using controlled nitrogen pressure boosting ?
Why "deal with" the hand your given ? Deal yourself a better one..........

PURELY theoretically of course..............

He certainly can be a comedian but most people find his sense of humour an aquired taste.

Regards

I say it's a flawed observation for a reason but it's probably a bad one;
This isn't an observation........
It's part observation, part theory from which you seem to have formulated a theory that its the way it's done, which is bad practice.

An observation would simply state;
1. Start high pressure / lean
2. Finish low presure / rich
3. Majority run this way.

You really can't afford to bias a resulting theory with anything except plain factual observation or in this case you'd believe this was the route to take because it was the majority vote and as in your case, more start pressure means going quicker which "proves" it.

If you had no preconceptions about nitrogen boosting and I simply offered you constant nitrous volume delivery what do you think the theory you formed from your observations would be ?

1. Does starting lean mean faster ET's ? (keeping volume constant)
2. Does ending rich mean faster terminals ? (keeping volume constant)
Based on the above,
3. Is this the majority vote because it just is ?

PURELY theoretically of course..............

Well consider the fact that i never intend to offend (not here anyway) and i do think life is far too short to be taken too seriously then i'm glad i can make you laugh at times, even if it isn't always intended !

Loopy, that's one of the things I like about you, the most!

Now, l'll come pick you up at the airport and feed & house you for 10 days or more & we'll go racing together. Now, I tend to be a pretty open person, but somewhere in the back of my mind, I somewhat think one, or the other, or the both of us ,will learn a lot.

So, when early next year would be the best time for you? Feb, Mar or April??
I'm serious.

I've been seriously tempted by Johnny's numerous offers several times but with the time it would take me to just get level with how promod works he's be better off with the space than the company........
Learning curves are rarely cheap either............
If only i'd lived next door for the past 20 years eh ?

"Purely theoretically" isn't entirely tongue in cheek you know.
Pushing standard road bikes past 200 isn't exactly simple if you want it to last more than one run, but generally it's tricky dropping down from the 100's of pounds a second and several thousand psi of my "day job"

If we didn't keep involving these damn cars and pesky engines i might well beat many top level racers at "nitrous racing"............

LOL Guess that makes 2 of us!

I got through some of the posts but not all so sorry if this is repeating but...

There was speak of applying laws and having seen NOS in different states at the same px/temp. I know that liquid Oxygen unlike any other liquid I know of does not convex. Rather is stratifies, the centre of the liquid mass staying the coldest and a regular increasing temperature established moving outward, all around.

This phenominum may be pressent in NOS, which would make the volume of the liquid critical when calculating temps at the outlet of the bottel. As liquid is removed from the bottel, the cooler centre expands to fill the space. As it expands is sheds energy lowering it's temperature but it is already at a lower temp than that it replaces.

So when you remove liquid from you NOS bottle, the pressure will drop much more quickly than can simply be explained by the dirrect proportionality of px, temp and volume.

If liquid NOS behaves like liquid Oxygen that is.

Also, as soon as a liquid or gas starts to move, it's px will drop.

I'd say that applies to nitrous and makes sense to me.

Almost each day that passes we discover something we didn't already know about nitrous and I'm not convinced that everything that is claimed or should be known about nitrous is either true or known.

I've stopped being surprised by what we find now and it's getting harder and harder (even though the norm when you gain more knowledge, is that it should get easier and easier), to understand what's going on.

It's fine for all these experts who claim nitrous is simple (due to a extreme lack of knowledge) and for those companies that just copy what every other company is doing (which just about covers them all) but when you start looking at it deeper and with the aid of a video camera, it's astonishing what you see.

i reckon the only way to work this out is to break down each possible restriction and the possible cause it could have
subject to trevs approval id say what happens before the pulsoids can be discounted (in relation to the gas/liquid flow)
what the pulsoid sees is a constant supply of liquid nos

for the record loopy im presuming a stablised bottle

so theres the pipe fixture to the pulsoid
the pulsoid internals
exit fitting from pulsoid
whatever distrobution blocks are fitted (with associated fixtures) if any
pipe fitting to injector
injector internals and nossle

each restriction causes a pressure drop, and so a tempory possible change of state if the restriction is big enough
retrictions can only add up if there isnt time (length of pipe) for the pressure to increase again
i know not of the restrictions each of these components make so i cant comment here, but i know a man that does...cue trev

maybe me, but im getting confused with the terms temperature and heat being mixed up
there is no such thing as cold, only levels of heat above absolute zero

Chemical/physical
At room temperature (20°C) the saturated vapour pressure is 58.5 bar, rising up to 72.45 bar at 36.4°C -- the critical temperature. The pressure curve is thus unusually sensitive to temperature.[29] Liquid nitrous oxide acts as a good solvent for many organic compounds; liquid mixtures and may form shock sensitive explosives.[citation needed]

As with many strong oxidisers, contamination of parts with fuels have been implicated in rocketry accidents, where small quantities of nitrous / fuel mixtures explode due to 'water hammer' like effects (sometimes called 'dieseling' -- heating due to adiabatic compression of gases can reach decomposition temperatures).[30] Some common building materials such as stainless steel and aluminum can act as fuels with strong oxidisers such as nitrous oxide, as can contaminants, which can ignite due to adiabatic compression.

a gem found on the web about nos
i believe this will explain your cup of nos trev
aslong as the room is less than 36.4C liquid nos can exist (loopy i know you put this elsewhere)

i have more theories but they require further thought

i was just thinking that the length of the pipe from the bottle to pulsoid would clear up any flow differences?
so you have to add in the syphon pipe
the valve
any fitting like pressure switch Ts
the pipe fitting
then the length of pipe

an idea ive had is that the static liquid nos behaves like a solid until its flowing
so when the pulsoid is openned, #1 as the pulsoid is close to being the highest point in the system any gas will collect there so there will be a sudden rush of escaping gas
#2 this sudden escape of gas leaves the liquid nos behind it, the vacuum allows for the liquid nos to expand very quickly causing pockets of gas due to pressure drop
if this is right it will continue down the pipe until the bottle pressure has enough force to over come the inertia of the remaining liquid nos and start to push it down the pipe
at this point the pressure in pipe becomes a constant (near enough) to provide a virtually constant liquid nos supply

Thats what I was trying to explain the other night Moo.

Not quite the terms I'd use but I'd say you've just about explained how it works.

i wonder if its tidal moon alignment?
it seems for one night a month my brain works lol

Funny you should say that, because my brain only seems to connect to "the ideas pool" once in a blue moon, at which times the ideas just flow freely but the rest of the time I have to work at it.

i get ideas most the time, but there all crap
then without warning a good one will fall out