NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

I decided to start a new thread for this subject rather than divert the Pro Mod engine spec thread any further.

The problem is that I think most of this new insight (gained whilst under the influence of morphene - hence the title), should remain secret for now or at least limited to a select few. However I want to make as many people aware of the outlines of these new advances in my concepts as possible, to ensure the origin of this knowledge is recorded.


VERY IMPORTANT:
One of my core new principles is to get MORE AIR into the cylinder (as well as more LIQUID nitrous when required), rather than accept that we're displacing ALL the air and just using nitrous. There are MANY good reasons for this and I've got the methods to achieve this for ALL the advanced concepts I'm working on - Timed Pulse Injection (TPI), In Chamber Injection (ICI), Semi Sealed Induction System (SSIS).

Now you may think that's crazy when nitrous has more oxygen than air BUT think about this - turbo and blower engines are currently making MORE power from AIR than nitrous cars are doing from NITROUS.
The trick is to understand why that's the case and to appreciate there is more than one reason for it and I'm SURE that I now have all that info and all the answers to those problems.

I'll deal with the most advanced first - In Chamber Injection (ICI)
This is where an injector is mounted directly in the combustion chamber (as a spark plug), which I've previously dismissed as having more negatives than positives and in the belief that my Timed Pulse Injection (TPI) system would produce better results.

I'm still undecided about which will produce the best results but I've overcome the negatives and realised a HUGE positive.

The negatives were;
1) The heat transfer to the injector from the head and combustion process resulting in a huge reduction in the density of the nitrous - cure - I've designed a 'Cooled Injector' - DESIGN SECRET.
2) The pressure and heat of combustion getting to the solenoid - cure - I've designed a simple 'supplementary' device to prevent this being a problem - DESIGN SECRET.
3) The pressure of the nitrous entering directly in the chamber bouncing of the piston and causing even worse reversion - cure - SECRET.
4) Getting the fuel in the chamber with the nitrous - cure - simple - SECRET.
5) Preventing nitrous flow during combustion and exhaust - cure - simple - SECRET.

Despite all the above there are still problems with this concept that will mean it will never be an option for more than a small percentage of applications (limited suitability of head design to accept the in chamber injector for example), but the advantages for those few could be worth the extra expense and trouble. Thankfully the Smart engine has 2 spark plugs (one of which is not required on nitrous), so it's going to be a relatively simple task to prototype this concept now.

The advantages;
1) Up to 120 degrees of extra chamber filling duration.
2) Maximum 'in chamber' nitrous density.
3) Air displacement completely PREVENTED.
4) Reversion completely PREVENTED.

There's probably more but the lack of morphene and not being up to full strength I can't think of them just now, so that's it for this post.

looks like 100+% would be easily possible with that setup.

p.s don't be tempted to self medicate!

Now, I know why you want the air and what you're using it for but your argument that blower cars are making more power than nitrous because of it stinks.
The blower cars are making more power primarily through the volume of development behind them compared to nitrous, which you have to admit are sorely underdeveloped

I'd agree if that's what I was saying but I wasn't saying they were making more power 'because' they use air (not nitrous), my point was that using air didn't STOP them making more power, so it's not such a bad idea using as much air as possible as you'd expect it to be, especially as my latest concepts will SUPERCHARGE the air in the inlet charge by a substantial amount.

presumably if your injecting directly after the inlet valve closes, the 'boost' is just dependent on how much n2o you inject, effectivly you'd have duel power adders!

if you can get that to work i think everyone will consider you the 'wizard of nos', maby even fastlad!

Well you've got me thinking anyway.........

I've had some GREAT compliments in my time but that one is the BEST EVER!!!!

BTW Loopy, I have some REAL PEARLS to come yet.

I might go back and have my appendix removed if it was all down to the morphene.

Hi Trev....

Those American Companies....you realise what will happen when you prove them ALL wrong ,as I am positive you will.... ??

Somone will knock at your door...and show you a cheque to buy WON....and say...just write your own price in...no matter how many zeroes...

Its what happens next that worries me...IF you do accept....they may well junk all your hard work and carry on with their rubbish stuff

Heres hoping.....you make the right decisions

All the best Brett

The application isn't as restrictive as you think in race circles,all of the old air cooled kawasakis seem to have twin plug heads and quite a few of the Suzukis do too.So you would be able to get a system on one of those bikes.
The problem here is where and what are you going to run it on?
As I see it there are a number of problems with the current nitrous systems that need to be addressed.
1. Uniformed approach to the problem,theres no single method thats accepted to be the best at the moment.The wet systems all have issues that get bandaids stuck on them to make them work,small lines big lines jets at solis jets at foggers,fogger1,2 softplume,crossfire etc etc.High fuel pressure low fuel pressure,modulated fuel soli not modulated fuel soli,one fuel soli per cylinder!!Progressive build up in time for whole run ,time per gear,rpm ,staged plus any previous combo etc etc.Go in any pit at a race meeting and you will see a different approach of how to do it.
With a Dry system a lot of the drama goes away leaving you with the ECU chioce and soliniod choice.Although it does open up a whole new World of control,with a number of options for how the nitrous comes in.Also the choice of multi staged or Revo.

2.The Turbo World on bikes is a lot more straight forward Turbo at the front close to the exhaust ports as poss a tube up to a plenum EFI for the fuelling, select your turbo by how much power you want and dial your progressive by each gear with boost ramps then when you're really clued up by time with ramps.

Somewhere you need to make the transition from nitrous wet with all the probs and arguements as to whats best, to dry systems where all you need to argue about is the application of the progressive gas.Currently in the dry field you have it the ultimate answer the 'Revo' I have an interim solution of multistaged,although you too could configure that with maximisers anyway.
Get this job done and get at least one vechile to break a record then you could run a direct feed system as you suggest above and you WILL be listened to.
But direct cyclinder nitrousing up a Smart car is something I may consider but wouldn't neccessarily publicise.If I were looking for a development path to nitrous etopia I would consider the following.

1.Dry nitrous system with piggy back ecu
2.Dry nitrous system using Revo
3.Direct to cylinder nitrous system.

All fitted to a race vechile that runs the numbers.
Although I'd keep the wet stuff in my line up I would stop all development work on wet nitrous systems as of now! its a problem that can be solved but the race customer base is full of 30years lucky blue underpants solutions that you will never succeed in converting the masses,like I say latest bandaid I heard about in the bike pits was a fuel soliniod per cylinder what ever next a fuel injector per cylinder maybe? they'll get there in the end I guess.

Hi Brett,

You're probably right if an 'existing' US nitrous company did buy my company they'd bin the products, so they could keep selling the profitable junk but it's my hope that it will be a company with a range of products that doesn't currently include nitrous then the situation should be different.

well i think some of the funny bikes use the old 2 valve motors, so perhaps not 'cutting edge' but a great way to stick two fingers up to nos/nx!

though i suppose you have to look to growing markets to impress, not the 'old school' i'd guess that means the fast furry dice. though when you get 9 second road cars, they deserve a bit more respect than i think they are sometimes given!

Vortex heads are 2 plug and the head of choice in some applications like pro stock even Dancey has a 4 valve motor with a twin plug setup.Its not as unusual as you think.

That's GREAT news - maybe Graham would like the most advanced system in the world, so advanced that it isn't even a prototype yet.

Does it make much extra power on the dyno and doesn't it have any adverse effects on nitrous?

Are you free for a chat?

Right I've decided that IF my new HIGH flow HIGH response Pulsoid design can achieve my aims for it ICI will be the best option for those vehicles that can use it.

However for the rest of the world Timed Pulse Injection is the ultimate answer but this also depends on my new Pulsoid design achieving my target figures.

The negatives of this system are;
1) The heat transfer to the inlet runner/head resulting in a large reduction in the density of the nitrous - cure - I've designed a Pulsoid that will only deliver nitrous while the inlet valve is open - DESIGN SECRET.
2) The pressure of the nitrous hitting the back of the closed valve and bouncing back causing reversion - cure - Operating time/duration - EXACT DETAILS SECRET.

The advantages;
1) More air in the chamber.
2) Increased 'in chamber' nitrous density.
3) Air displacement minimised.
4) Reversion minimised.

As you can see TPI will have most of the advantages ICI but without the limited range of applications.

so its simaliar in concept to direct rail injection for diesils?
wouldnt this also allow for running without an induction system (no inlet port/valves/manifold) as youd be injecting both fuel and compustant?

is there no possibility of designing an injector that will replace the spark plug of any engine but that also has a spark plug incorporated?

then by using custom cams operating both inlet and exhaust valves together you could use the existing inlet valve and ports as a 2nd exhaust system

Since typing this thread, I've since realised that we do NOT want to replace all the air with nitrous, what we want is to get as much air in as possible and then SUPERCHARGE that air charge with nitrous - rather than displacing most of it due to inefficient nitrous system design.

I'm already selling systems that are VASTLY more efficient than ALL other kits, based on the principles behind my opening statement and I'm constantly working towards further improvements in efficient delivery of nitrous WITHOUT displacing the ESSENTIAL air charge.

so your developing/developed a method of accurately firing nos to the millisecond when the inlet valve is openning, then stopped when the valve closes?

sorry if ive missed the point again

Close - if you think about it further you'll probably come to the same conclusion I came to, as it's only common sense, just as everything else about my designs are.

if i go off what you were hinting at before, the idea is to fire the injectors early to create a pressurised charge before the valve opens?
then when the valve opens it creates a greater vacuum which is the supercharging effect??