NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

tell you what i would like to do, is build a SERIOUS engine.. capable of extreme horsepower, start with high compression head gaskets and heads and drive it to the absolute limits.. till the point it wont take anymore nitrous and makes all the horsepower it can, then take the same engine and put a thicker head gasket (lower compression) and do the same thing, and see what horsepower it makes.. then repeat 3 or 4 more times to see if there is any clear pattern. i would be willing to put money on it that at the end of the day, the engine with the lowest compression would make the most horsepower.
EXACTLY RIGHT and the PERFECT motor for that job would be a Top Fuel motor and I'm 100% CERTAIN that I could make at least as much power from such an engine, as anyone else could do from blown Nitro, especially with a SSIS and without the power soaked up by the blower, the bike should run MUCH QUICKER ET's.

also id like to take one of those engines "after" its hit the limit and put a extremly hot "screen" (supplied by PLENTY of voltage supply) inside the intake runner, to jump start some of the nitrogen and oxygen splitting. see what happens.. just cuz.
Just cuz you are crazy, although luckily it probably wouldn't achieve what you want!!!! LOL

One of the other limiting factors to what we'll be able to achieve is this AUTO-DISSOCIATION of the nitrous in the chamber BEFORE ignition, due to the ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF HEAT IT GENERATES, so God knows what the outcome would be of kick starting that before it even enters the sylinders.

I've already designed a number of ways to avoid this problem and they are already in use in my systems but it's something that's going to need even more work, in order to push the barriers even higher.

ok.. im working it all out in my mind now...
Very pleased to hear it JC


and just for a "last word" your saying that in no way shape or form is the pressure high enough in the cylinder to convert the gas back to a liquid.. right.. cant happen...even if the charge is cold and dense.
DURING the MAJORITY of the compression stroke (99.99999999999%), there is NO CHANCE that the conditions (pressure & temperature, etc.) inside the combustion chamber, are conducive to the nitrous oxide (in whatever form it reaches the chamber in), doing ANYTHING OTHER than turning to A GAS.
However, in that last 0.00000000001% when enough nitrous is being added, I 'BELIEVE' (I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE but I am 99% confident I'm right), the GENERAL conditions in the combustion chamber (pressure & temperature, etc. JUST PRIOR TO THE SPARK), are such that the nitrous AUTO DISSOCIATES in to oxygen and nitrogen and in so doing, send the combustion temps (and pressures VERY BRIEFLY) OFF THE SCALE, to levels that FAR EXCEED any temperatures recorded in ANY other form of internal combustion, INCLUDING HIGH DOSES OF NITRO in a Funny Car motor.

This is why I consider it an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT limiting factor, that MUST be addressed (further), to ensure we can achieve the peak power levels we both envisage would be possible otherwise.

would the location of that reaction
In a well designed nitrous system and inside a well designed combustion chamber, I'd expect it to be uniform throughout the chamber, rather than a specific location but as most will have flaws somewhere in the package, anything is possible.

and the pressure/nitrogen inside the chamber help to buffer that and contain it long enough to prevent it causing damage?
I doubt the location has much effect on it, although if there was an intense localisation of the dissociation, I guess it could make matters a whole lot worse.
Nitrogen is without doubt the buffering agent but as I'm reasonably sure that a good deal of engine damage that HAS been experienced is likely to be caused by this effect, I doubt the current ingredients in the combustion chamber are able to prevent it.

you arent talking plasma level temperatures are you?
Nope - take a look at this page and then compare the results shown on other types of motors under their heading of Data - this will make your brain spin!!!!!
http://www.tfxengine.com/NitrousEngineData.html

as i believe there is a point in which any gas can turn to plasma.
Haven't try to fry my brain by going that deep yet!!!

it would take a serious reaction to split the 2 nitrogen atoms aparts and the 3 level bond holding them together is one of the strongest known.
NOPE - the dissociation process IS A BREEZE and well withing the parameters of an internal combustion engine WHEN USING NITROUS - I BELIEVE!!!!

but what if that IS occuring as well?
As far as I'm aware (but I could be wrong on this), the N2O breaks down in to individual nitrogen atoms, although there is some question over whether the oxygen remains as single atoms for long before bonding in pairs to be O2.

also, a brief reading about dissociation says that many times its reversible... although there might not be enough time for that to happen.
Even if there was time, I doubt the conditions are condusive to that but if nitrous could be made to dissociate and then re-associate in the same instant, while releasing the exothermic heat energy in the process, without needing an equal amount to re-associate, you'd have a perpetual power source and on that basis along, I SERIOUSLY doubt that happens ANYWHERE.

big nitrous is fun
IT SURE IS and well beyond 99.99999% of the nitrous population!!!!

its funny i was JUST about to go into the o2 subject. Knowing that o2 generally seeks to bond as soon as it can i would "assume" as soon as it bumps into another oxygen atom then the bond happens. but what about the ones that dont bump into another before they get burnt up.. what effect does that have?
I would expect MOST of the oxygen in whatever form to be used in combustion, so any that doesn't will have negligible effect no matter whether its bonded or not.

the question is, which oxygen does it bond with? a free O from the nitrous charge, or perhaps some of the O from the fuel... or maybe even from a little of the water vapor thats naturally in the air..
I doubt there's enough time between dissociation and combustion for much if any bonding to go on, between anything other than the products of combustion.

there is so many variables, but aside from all of them, my biggest concern is TIME.
TIME is the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR that 99.99999999999999999999% of people don't even consider.

how much time does the engine realistically have for all these bonds to occur?
How much does it have for ANYTHING to occur and there are NUMEROUS processes that are seriously affected by the time available.

Just like people say there is plenty of heat in the engine, well that is true, but aluminum doesnt transmit heat as fast as nitrous can suck it out, so at a high enough rpm with enough nitrous, then your purely relying on compression heat.
All very likely

especially if your using Ceramic coatings to keep heat OUT of the engine.
That certainly wouldn't help in the vaporisation process.

I think so many things change at super high levels of nitrous that it would take some serious R&D to figure out what is going on, and realisitcally and cost wise, it may just be easier to "guess and check" and see what works. maybe then you can get enough data to start peicing together the puzzle.
ALL VERY TRUE but luckily for my customers, I've been collecting the relevant info for 35 years and since the advent of data loggers and advanced sensors, I'm now getting more information back from my customers than ever. It's that knowledge (along with my UNcommon sense), that's responsible for the advances in our system designs.

I also have a problem with the data logging at these levels. I talked with a couple physicist at school and they assured me that it IS true that pressure does not travel evenly and that pressure can be different on the outside than the center, especially if there is a huge temperature difference.
I'm sure that's true during the COMBUSTION process but I doubt it applies to the compression stroke (which is what we were talking about when I said it would be even), except when squish areas create high pressure areas/waves. That's why pressure can be described as 'waves' otherwise that would be totally inappropriate.

But of course this is virtually unnoticeable until you get up to a piston speed that can "out run" that effect. On car engines.. prbably not a problem.
From a Formula 1 article I recently read, even NA combustion is so chaotic that it's a MIRACLE that so few firing cycles misfire, so God knows what they'd make of nitrous combustion.

dont worry about answering all the "what ifs" trev.. just throwing things out there.
LOL - You should know better by now, than to think I wouldn't respond even to speculation. - LOL