NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

Fogger 'TYPE' nozzle plume on the left Vs Crossfire plume on the right



Which one do you think is going to give a more even distribution in a single point system, where it is essential to spread it about rather than aim it all down one cylinder????

There are a number of reason why most US nozzles don't work as well as Crossfire’s and in particular in single point systems;

1) On a well made type of US brand injector/nozzle the fuel is drawn inside the conical plume of nitrous. The inside of the cone is the coldest section of the plume, as the outer sections start drawing heat as soon as the nitrous enters the intake system. The central core of the plume is trying to expand INWARDS, therefore it can only draw heat from the fuel, which makes the fuel more dense (rather than less dense), when what we really need is for the fuel to be atomised. Also as the nitrous tries to expand it can only do so by squashing the fuel (again making it more dense). Being colder and compressed it restricts the movement of the atoms and unless the fuel molecules can expand or be blown to bits, the fuel won’t be atomised very well (if at all).

2) On a badly made nozzle the fuel doesn't get to the centre but that's even worse, because it only makes contact with a small amount of the nitrous and because it's not caught inside the plume it drops onto the manifold wall, rather than being delivered with the nitrous. There is little to no atomisation and a reduced amount of fuel delivered to the engine as a consequence, resulting in lean outs and backfire explosions.

3) With most US nozzles the nitrous plume exits as a very narrow, extremely strong UNIDIRECTIONAL cone shape, with the nitrous ONLY on the outer perimeter, which means that uneven distribution is UNAVOIDABLE. In most instances the extremely strong unidirectional nature of the plume, results in most nitrous and fuel being fed to the furthest cylinder and overdosing it, whilst feeding very little to the other cylinders. Furthermore, as the nitrous/fuel plume passes each of the cylinder intakes, SOME of the nitrous ONLY (in the outer of the plume), is drawn in to those cylinders, causing those to run lean.

In contrast to all the above issues related to US nozzles, the WON Crossfire;

1) Has a UNIQUE WIDE FAN shaped plume that spreads the nitrous and fuel delivery over a wider area.
2) The lack of a cone shaped plume results in the fuel being mixed more evenly with the nitrous as there is NO core vacuum effect for the fuel to be pulled into.
3) The method of creating the fan shape plume, GREATLY REDUCES the extremely strong unidirectional force, that a 1,000 psi nitrous plume normally has as it exits ALL US type nozzles.
4) The combined benefits of all the above design features results in a far more even distribution of fuel and nitrous.

Here are some drawings that represent the plumes from the 2 different types of nozzles;

1) ANY US brand Fogger type nozzle


2) The distribution from using such a nozzle in a typical 4 cylinder manifold


3) Our UNIQUE Crossfire injector


4) The distribution from using the Crossfire in a typical 4 cylinder manifold



There's no wonder that the likes of Vipers have problems with single US nozzle (per bank) and why our customer Jack is doing very well with a Crossfire per bank.

So basically with a badly optimised nozzle in a worst case scenario you can actually get fuel drop out?

I'm actually more amazed the more I look at the image. What a night and day difference and this doesn't even show the internal problems of many other injectors where they push the fuel backwards.

Here's another illustration of why most of this style nozzle don't work as the original designer intended.



This shows how the fuel just wets the bottom edge of the nitrous plume closest to the fuel outlet, resulting in no mixing and no atomisation with very poor, uneven distribution.

In the worst of the US brands nozzles and ultimately in all of them when they try to flow large amounts of nitrous and fuel, the fuel ends up dripping from the nozzles as there's too much to be picked up by the nitrous plume;

wouldnt having such a wide spray pattern as shown in the first picture just puddle fuel against the walls of the runners? even the big bad 700"+ motors only have runners ~2-2.5" wide.

do you have any specs on your nozzles? how much power can they support? do you ever mess with large dry systems?

are your solenoids better than the other so called junk out there if they arent used in a pulsing manner? how much power can each one support? i saw the pictures of the pro mod and it had 16 solenoids on it, which seems like it would be quite the financial burden to purchase.

-dave

Hi Trev - new to the board. We have been reading the board for the last twelve months. With regards to nozzles and the spread and the atomisation and the quantities of fuel/nitrous mix entering the valve intakes ....bla bla..... We were wondering if this has ever been measured in terms of percentages of nitrous/fuel/air per valve?. We understand from the JPG's that crossfire appears to have an increased spread field and therefore one would expect all the increased results / benefits (as output - later on) as you previously defined - Have all the differing type of nozzles/foggers/ whatever been tested on the same engine under the same conditions? Plenty of questions just curious.

I know what I'd really love to see - a vehicle with transparent acrylic runners and plenum running nitrous. You could probably put that dodgy dye ,that people use to mask red diesel, in the fuel to make it easier to see.

in a direct port application what causes uneven distribution?

Depends how it's set up. To many of the distribution blocks sold by nitrous companies don't feed the injectors evenly. You have high pressure nitrous blasting past the first injector(nozzle) and feeding the last injector the most and then you have the fuel coming in at a much lower pressure where it it can feed more to the first injector and less to the last one until the distribution block is fully pressurized and stabilized.

Pipe lengths also affect the amount delivered to each injector / nozzle (longer pipes reduce the volume of delivery).

At last it looks like one of the US companies has recognised the benefits of a wide spray pattern and moved away from the cone shaped spray pattern that NOS, NX & Co are using, that are so bad for single point set ups.





I wonder where they got that idea from.
Although these guys were smart enough to COPY my design principle, they weren't smart enough to stay in business, so WON is still the ONLY company offering an APPROPRIATELY DESIGNED nozzle for SINGLE POINT applications.

Whilst the spray pattern is good, the fuel delivery point is the same as ALL US brand nozzles, so it doesn't have all the advantages that the Crossfire features but I must admit it's the closest yet.

Looks like I'll have to bring out one of my new injector designs to make sure I stay in front on this component.

By the way the company is TNT but they're still using generic solenoids and obviously have an inadequate understanding of flow dynamics because they're using 'T's at the solenoid outlets.

Then contrast the TNT nozzle with this piece of barbaric garbage to see that not all nitrous kits are the same.









I wouldn't use this piece of junk on a car that was only fit for the junk yard. Not only are the design and manufacturing techniques barbaric but the end results have to be seen to appreciate how bad they are.
1) The fuel side suffers from back pressure from the nitrous side
2) The spray pattern is anything but even and symmetrical
3) The mix of fuel and nitrous is uneven
4) Atomisation of the fuel is virtually non existent

I bet it's impossible for anyone to make a worse nozzle!!!!

The hardest thing to understand is that the people who bodge this thing together claim their kits are great and produce great results and what's even worse is some of their customers believe them and mouth off about it on independent forums.

When we get some spare time we're going to video the results of a few demonstrations showing how bad this piece of garbage is (along with some of the other badly designed/made components out there) and I'll be posting them for the world to see.


So remember - just as the TNT nozzle stands out from the rest of the Fogger brigade "all" of my components stand out from "all" the rest and that's why we get more from less.

I must on this occassion agree - That stuff looks so rough - I mean hows it stuck together?

We'll be testing the TNT nozzle shown above soon (thanks to Denny posting one over to me) and we'll also be testing the latest Fogger, Zex & NX nozzles to see how they perform, so watch this thread for the latest clips.

I know it has been over a year but did you get any of those tests done on the other nozzles?

Yes we've tested them and videoed the results but I've had trouble editing the results, because of the unique format used by the mini DVD camcorder.

I've now bought a new hard drive camcorder and it may be quicker and easier to redo the tests than sort the editing software for the DVD stuff.

What I can tell you is that there are some GARBAGE nozzles out there and I feel sorry for anyone who is foolish enough to buy the cheaper nitrous brands that are on the market.

Updating this thread with a YouTube example of bad nozzle design and performance from a U.S. kit in a single point application.

Also note the cameraman's stupidity by recording while the dyno run is performed: a backfire could have seriously injured or even KILLED him!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1sYyjhluw4

That video clearly shows how narrow the plume is from US nozzles.

Unfortunately all the pics and diagrams I previously posted have been deleted by the host/s, so I'll be updating the whole thread ASAP with new pics and the latest info.

Here's another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIxnliwhWIA

Dynotune wet system.

Can't believe the nozzle moves on that one - that's certainly going to change the distribution.

This one is even better as its clearer and shows how bad the distribution block is working;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqSCVj6H7Gk

And for anyone who doubts how TERRIBLE the distribution is in ALL US brand kits, here's some pics I found on the internet (that the owner was happy with before he received the WON education), of a different install as it's a 6 cylinder kit.

Not only do these pics show how TERRIBLE the distribution is but they also show;

1) How SMALL the plume spread is (which is fine for Direct port but TERRIBLE for single point)
2) How lacking in density all the plumes are
3) How the plumes VARY in flow and density second by second

ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC and yet the majority of people still believe that US brand kits are better than WON
MAKES NO SENSE TO ME WHEN I CAN PRODUCE ENDLESS PROOF OF HOW TERRIBLE THEY ARE!!!!!