NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

hello! i'm Raffaele from italy , i have installed a nitrous kit on my 1970 cuda with 440-500 stroker kit , i have installed 71-75 jet for 150 hp , pressure around 900 psi everything work good , but the problem is : all is ok only when the bottle is full , for 4-5 spray , after i have problem at high speed ...3-4 speed ...i have installed a bottle heater ... but nothing....sorry for my english ..i accept all advice .... thank you very much

Raffaele

Welcome to my forum Raffaele.

You have 3 separate & distinct problems;

Issue 1 - You only get 4 - 5 sprays - Assuming you still have LIQUID nitrous left in the bottle after the last good spray, the cause of the problem could be one of the following;
1) Your bottle is mounted incorrectly
2) The dip tube is fitted incorrectly
3) The dip tube has broken or come off

Issue 2 - You have a problem at high speed - This could be caused by the following;
1) Blocked filter
2) Kinked supply pipe
3) Badly routed pipe picking up heat
4) Your mixture is too rich
5) Your ignition strength is inadequate

Issue 3 - You don't get the full performance from your kit or the advice you should get, from the company that made your it - This is standard practice when using a US brand kit and can only be cured by switching to a Wizard of NOS system, where as you can see you get immediate advice.

I strongly advise you to purchase a copy of my book to obtain ALL the information you'll ever need when using nitrous oxide;

http://www.noswizard.com/index.php/misc ... -book.html

hi ! my problem is still now with new nitrous plate !! with this video have 400 hp jet ! best ET 9.70 with misfire from middle track to finish line , plug gap at .030 .. and the plug color look good !!
this is the video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqMUG-ZgonA

It sounds like an ignition problem, given the nitrous system is working properly. You can try to measure the spark with a gap testing tool.

I wouldn't use that kit again until you are sure you've found the cause of the problem, as it could cost you YOUR ENGINE otherwise.

Although ignition problems are the most common cause of problems with nitrous, I'm not totally confident that is the cause of your misfire.
The problem is that US brand kits suffer from NUMEROUS design faults and as a consequence there are NUMEROUS potential causes of such problems. As WON systems do NOT have ANY design faults I and my customers don't have to be concerned about such, so I can't give you a great deal of assistance in solving the problem.

If that problem happened to one of my customers I'd suspect the ignition system, as I KNOW that NOTHING ELSE would be at fault but I'd also want to check the installation of the system, as it doesn't sound as clear cut as being just the ignition system to me.

I'd be checking fuel & nitrous flow for volume and interruptions in flow.

Did you find the cause of your earlier problems and if so what were they?

THANKS FOR YOUR ANSWER THIS IS THE HISTORY :

WITH OLD EDELBROCK PLATE AND 78-93 FUEL NOS JET THE CAR WAS OK ( 200HP)
THIS IS THE OLD SPECS WHEN THE CAR WAS OK :
OLD NITROUS EDELBROCK KIT
6 AN HOSE FROM TRUNK TO ENGINE
6 AL IGNITION BOX WITH HVC COIL AND MSD NEW CABLE
5671-9 NGK PLUG AT .035 GAP
TIMING RETARD BOX THAT RETARD 8 DEGREE WHEN SPRAY IN 2ND AND 3 ND
NO FILTER ON NITROUS LINE
A2000 FUEL PUMP CARBURETOR PRESSURE 7 PSI , NITROUS PRESSURE 9 PSI
HAVE 2 BATTERY ON THE REAR AND 100 AH ALTERNATOR

6 MONTH AGO I HAVE INSTALLED :

NEW PERIMETRAL NITROUS PLATE NX WITH NEW SOLENOID TRIED WITH 200-300-400 HP
NEW MSD 6 DIGITAL
NEW WIRE AND PLUG



NO OTHER CHANGES .... THE CAR START TO MISFIRE AND ESITATION OVER 6500-7000 RPM AND NO PROBLEM WITHOUT NITROUS ALSO AT 7.5K RPM !

BEST ET WITH MISFIRE IS 9.6@146 KMH FINISHLINE AT 7300 RPM

I'd try changing back to the previous ignition components.

You may think that I'm making the following comments just to try and sell you our products but these are FACTS;

1) 99% of ALL US brand nitrous products are GARBAGE, especially the plates and especially perimeter plates.

2) The reason they are GARBAGE, is because NONE of the people involved in those companies understand the first thing about nitrous FLOW.

3) Due to lack of understanding they fail to offer products that deliver EVEN distribution.

4) The ONLY US brand plate that delivers nitrous and fuel 'close' to EQUALLY to all cylinders, is the Speedtech plate;
http://www.speedtech-nitrous.com/diffus ... stems.html
The reason it is better than the others is because it fires nitrous from the centre of the plate. The reason it fails to deliver perfectly even, is because it only has a single feed.

5) The ONLY plates in the world that are GUARANTEED to deliver PERFECT distribution are our Spiders and Killer Scorpion plates;
http://www.noswizard.com/nitrous-ancill ... -4500.html

http://www.noswizard.com/nitrous-ancill ... plate.html

6) The reasons our plates deliver PERFECT distribution, is because they fire nitrous from the centre AND because they have TWIN feeds.

7) The reason perimeter plates CAUSE UNEVEN distribution, is because nitrous has MASS AND HIGH LEVELS OF INERTIA, which means the flow MUST be 'MANAGED', in a way that takes those factors into account and US companies aren't even aware that these factors exist, never mind how they should 'manage' the flow to achieve perfect distribution.

Now most people think a bit of uneven distribution isn't a problem and that is correct on SMALL levels of nitrous flow but as you ramp up the flow it becomes more and more important, as a small imbalance at say 100 HP will have a very small percentage effect on the total induction flow and that obviously increases as you flow more.

If I was looking to buy a nitrous plate, the VERY LAST type I would buy is a PERIMETER type for all the above reasons.

By the way I've taken a very close look at your nitrous kit/installation and there are a number of things I would advise you to improve, if you were using my products but as they are American products it's not possible to do so.

For your further information, the following link will take you to a webpage that I created to explain the effect of mass and inertia on nitrous flow and distribution, which may help to explain why the perimeter plates are such a TERRIBLE idea;

http://www.noswizard.com/pdf/optimum_di ... yblock.pdf

I've also knocked up a rough sketch of the flow through a typical perimeter plate for you below.

In addition to the relatively big differences in flow at the start and end of each side of the plate, there is also a further level of difference, as the flow down each subsequent side is less than the previous side, which is why the lines get shorter and shorter as we go round the plate.

To make matters even worse, the turbulence caused by the flow as it returns and collides with the flow at the entry point, will cause HAVOC with all the flow characteristics of the plate.

The length of the grey lines represent the amount of flow at those point in the perimeter of the plate and the flow would gradually VARY from the holes that I've not bothered to include in the diagram to save time.


NONE of these FAULTS (or any others) exist in a WON plate design

That system explains a lot about what's happening; I bet there is way too much nitrous going into a couple of the runners.

Exactly right and ALL US made plates distribute UNEVENLY.

Spraybars feed more nitrous to those cylinders furthest from the entry end and least to those closest.
Likewise they feed more fuel to those cylinders furthest from the entry end and least to those closest.
To make matter worse, the IDIOTS who make these plates put the fuel feed on the opposite side to the nitrous feed.
That means the cylinders that get most fuel get least nitrous (so they run excessively rich) and the cylinders that get the least fuel, GET MOST NITROUS and we all know what that causes.

The PATHETIC attempts by one US nitrous company to try and copy my Spiders are at least as bad (and are almost certainly worse), than even perimeter plates for the following reasons;
1) They only have one feed and as stated in my previous post, to achieve perfect ditribution TWO are needed.
2) One of the reason my Spiders have legs, is to PREVENT cylinders randomly sucking in, whatever nitrous is within their reach (rather than JUST what I want it to get), as the consequences of the firing cycles of V8 motors, CAUSES uneven cylinder filling due to charge ROBBING from adjacent cylinders. Now that's not so bad on a NA motor but it becomes CRITICAL when adding nitrous. This problem has lead me to increase the length of the legs to the maximum possible, as even with short legs, it wasn't enough to stop it.
4) There is an optimum location for the discharge of nitrous and that is at the entry of each runner and this can only be achieved from a central supply point, by adding long legs.

In contrast to my carefully thought out and correctly designed Spider, the IDIOT who made this PATHETIC 'ATTEMPT' at a COPY, is obviously TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to the phenomena or he's chosen to ignore the consequences to his customers, in favour of making a plate that is much cheaper and as a consequence will make him more profit by appealing to more potential customers;

Ook .. thank you very much for your explaining .. Yes the problem is started when i have installed this shit perimeter NX plate .... With older combo with traditional edelbrock plate and 200 hp jet the car was ok perfect , after installation of perymeter plate i have setted ad 150 hp and was ok , 250 hp little bit misfire , 400 hp very high misfire !! Im undecided if reinstall the old edelbrock plate or buy another new plate or your plate .. Or install a fogger kit single cyl port..
Et of my Cuda :

No nitrous 10.55@132 mph
200 hp Eddy plate 9,78@140 mph perfect
200 hp Nx plate 9,90 @138 mph Perfect but slower than 200 hp eddy
400 hp Nx plate 9.68 @145 mph Very high misfire

Although ALL perimeter plates are a TERRIBLE idea and should be avoided like the plague, your problem still 'MIGHT' be ignition related or it could be a COMBINATION of the plate AND the ignition.

To help you appreciate why my Spider is so much better than ANY other plate, I'm going to post a technical article on the flow through EACH type of plate, PROVING why ALL the others CAUSE UNEVEN distribution.

I'll be creating some rough sketches like the one in my last post for each type of plate and including pictures along with technical explanations.

In the meantime, if you'd like to read the following technical threads on our Spider plate, you'll see that it is EVEN BETTER THAN A US DIRECT PORT KIT, as it offers;
1) ALL the benefits of ALL the other plate style system, WITHOUT ANY of the shortcomings they suffer from
2) ALL the benefits of a direct port style system, WITHOUT ANY of the shortcomings they suffer from
Which means you get the best of both concepts

http://forum.nitrous-advice.org/viewtop ... =29&t=3972

http://forum.nitrous-advice.org/viewtop ... =29&t=2710

By the way in the second link an INDEPENDENT AMERICAN customer, has posted an example of a spraybar flowing nitrous unevenly and your Eddy plate will be EXACTLY THE SAME.

hi .. i dont success to find in your website the spider plate ... you can show me the link ??

found !

http://www.noswizard.com/catalog/produc ... mage/1425/


i see this because i have 4150 flange ...

thanks ... i will contact on email sales

some questions

i can use my Edelbrock solenoid with 1/4 inner ?
or i can use my NX solenoid with 1/8 inner ?

i see your plate have 2 inlet of nitrous and 2 inlet of fuel ....

need hoses ??

I totally agree with The Wizard as I have gone deep into the subject of other brand solenoids. Simply put, Pulsoids are THE ONLY CORRECT solenoids to use with nitrous and they're design is AS PERFECT as a solenoid can get because of their AWESOME reliability AND performance. And since they need no "maintenance", they pay for themselves in time.

Secondly, braided hoses are GOD AWFUL once you realize how liquid nitrous oxide behaves. Braided hoses COST MORE, have POOR performance, and cannot be cut and routed as easily as nylon tubing, not to mention the safety benefits!

Here's the first post of my latest technical thread on nitrous distribution;

http://forum.nitrous-advice.org/viewtop ... 206#p86206

thanks but I can not replace the whole Car !! i want found the problem !! with old Eddy plate the car was ok with consistent pass and correct ratio AFR for many years ....

You replaced your eddy parts (plate & solenoids) with NX parts, it's just a matter of doing the same thing but buying much better products.

You may 'think' the performance was 'OK' with the Eddy parts but until you've experienced what WON products can do, you can't say that was the case, as you don't have the results they would produce to compare them to.

Whatever results you achieved or achieve using ANY US brand products, you would DEFINITELY achieve MUCH BETTER results using WON products.

The reason that is a FACT, is because ALL WON products are DESIGNED CORRECTLY, to achieve OPTIMUM FLOW and NO other brand of product is.

If you have any doubts about that, you only have to read the thread that I posted especially for you;

http://forum.nitrous-advice.org/viewtop ... f=5&t=7420

Furthermore, nobody is trying to 'SELL' you anything, ALL I'm doing is informing you of the flaws in the products you have bought and proving that by showing you what correctly designed products are.
If you 'choose' to upgrade any of your existing parts to WON you will see an improvement in your results and the more parts you upgrade the bigger the improvement will be.

By the way which other head of a nitrous company would even bother to talk to you, never mind create a dedicated technical page for you, to explain why their products were the best and why you were having problems with those you have?
The answer is NONE OF THEM and even if they did talk to you, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to prove their products are the best, BECAUSE THEY AREN'T.

The old Eddy plate may have given you consistent results in the past, but the idea here is to make more power and to go faster, which is why you changed to the NX kit. Also, bar plates have a history of developing cracks and erosion of the orifices, which means that it would have failed eventually.

Since you're having problems at the high end of the track, the engine load is higher and the nitrous system has been active for several seconds. It seems to me that there is a problem with nitrous flow as it seems to aggravate after several passes when the bottle is not full.
First, the plate has a terrible distribution pattern, as mentioned by The Wizard, and they are also susceptible to freezing at the orifices and any turbulence in the nitrous flow will aggravate this. Second, from what I see in the photos, there are numerous components that are disruptive to nitrous flow and can cause freezing of nitrous in the flow path. Third, these components are located in a high heat area and because they are conductive, they absorb heat and transfer it to the liquid nitrous changing it to a gas. Fourth, the bottle pressure falls FASTER when it is less than full, which reduces the flow rate of the system giving it MORE time to freeze up components and cause blockage.


So changing to another plate may help, but the problem could still be there to some degree.
Like the Wizard said, you just can't appreciate the difference in WON performance until you've tried it for yourself. I've used MANY different kit brands and they just don't work well, have poor reliability, and COST MORE money. I made the change and it was so significant that I am driven to devoting my time to helping others enjoy nitrous power.

Also note that I'm only a customer and NOT PAID in any way by WON.

OK Guy , I know that is not 'to sell and I never thought .. and I also know you want help me ... sorry for my english
other info :

bottle weight check every pass and the problem also with full bottle

i can install the Eddy old plate with different better straight fitting !!?? and after i want buy your spider plate but with 4500 intake that i will buy also

i want try the car and solve this shit problem

i dont like install the solenoid on the fender ....