NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

Those big V8's are thirsty, mind you you only pay about a quarter of what we do!

The demand of the nitrous is beyond the included ECU tables, so I don't get the fuel pressure bump that I should. The pump should easily deliver 500+ bhp, except it doesn't receive the instruction to do so. It's just down to the programming beyond 100 bhp.

Cookin' with GAAAAS!

Went to test out the Musty with the standard 50 jets to work out any bugs, then I hopped up to the 70 jets: big difference in torque (150 ft lbs @ 2500). After hitting the gas, I cut the engine and found all spark plugs looking quite healthy (I'd say a good safe A/F). I erred more on the richer side with a slightly smaller nitrous jet to account for the high climate temps so realistically, it is about 70-75 hp. Of course I go to crank it up to go home and... 1 cyl dead. I thought, "WTF? That's impossible, everything was OK. These things love the gas and this was nothing." I limped home only to find that someone had a JACKED UP wiring repair on a FUEL INJECTOR! I was SUPER LUCKY to find that it didn't give out during the tests or else I could have eaten a cyl up. It's all good now, but that was a close call.


I'm also unsure if I'm spinning tire hard or if the clutch is slipping on the gas now. It feels like a good clutch but I did notice that the revs jumped a bit (by sound) as the car accelerated. I didn't look at the speedo to see if it matched, so hopefully I can manage with the stock clutch for now. If anything, I can ease the ramp up on the Maxy: right now it's basically a fixed hit.

The Musty is really liking the lovely nectar!

Work in progress:

Fitting a 20 lb (about 4 gallons) LPG tank for nitrous fuel supply. I'm not finished with it yet, but this is what it will look like. It still needs the top strap to be made and it's going to be a slightly different design so that it's easier to remove/reinstall the tank and be more secure.

Instead of mounting a separate fuel cell to fill up with expensive, super corrosive, or perishable fuels and then having to find a fuel pump & regulator for all of that, it's just cheaper and simpler to use LPG. LPG is high octane, needs no pump, doesn't spoil, and... IT'S CHEAP!

At last, I won't have to dick around with buying tuners to mess with the ECU to get the fuel pump to work correctly nor need to retard timing beyond the stock tables.

Plus, I won't need to refill the tank that often because it takes a lot less fuel than nitrous to produce power. It's about a 1:5~6 usage ratio so I'll have fuel for a LOOOONG time before a refill is needed.

Lastly, with LPG, there is no worry about fuel drop out because the liquid propane boils into a gas like nitrous so it won't puddle, which is a concern on this intake manifold.

The Musty may have a 125 progressive hit soon!


Basically, this is the same route that I use on my mini go-kart that I sprayed some big hits on for a little 46cc with no damage of any kind: gains of over 200% on that little thing.

Thats quick work, better than paying someone to do the ecu work too, enjoying the story so far

BTW, I finished up the bracket and now I'm definitely confident in its safety level. Next step is testing out the jetting ratios and going for some tests.

Lets hope you dont get a pucture when spinning up those rear tires, cos youve got no where for the spare now!

Yes, I'm going to sort that out. In the meantime, it's sitting in the back seat.

With the LPG do you just use the bottle pressure or use a regulator to adjust the output, or is it just a case of jet size ratio?

Propane injection is a GO!!!

I was unhappy with the braided pipe, so I fitted nylon pipe to feed the LPG. I can switch back to braided, once the fuel requirements go up but that's A LOT of fuel!

It was MUCH more critical that the fuel side piping be proper because any inconsistency in fuel delivery (even for a moment) could blow the engine from a lean AF. If this was the nitrous side, the only effect would be a loss of power due to over-fuelling.

Check out this video of why I chose the nylon (note: I knew this would be the result): Braided v Nylon

Excellent

I haven't posted in a while (nitrous shortage), so here is the "Musty Plan" for a stock engine street beast:



Obviously, this is just a predictive model and in no way reflects real world results but it should be close. The key is using the progressive power application where the engine speed rises and torque falls. Most supercharger systems reflect similar results in power and peak torque, but not the broad torque curve possible with WoN nitrous systems.

Moreover, it shows how it's possible to run such a large amount of nitrous on a generally weak engine (internally) where most nitrous users have failed, thus praising superchargers as "safe". Unknowingly, they don't realize the huge amounts of sudden torque even on a much smaller shot can blast pistons and conrods to powdered bits. Like in this example:



This example uses a competitor's "Wheel Horsepower Rating" (more like horseSHIT), where the typical user blasts a "150 whp" shot of nitrous. This engine won't survive very long and I have yet to see one still running around. And even if it did blow, the owner probably wouldn't fess up to it.

More on the WHP rating: there is no magic behind claiming that a shot is measured at the wheels or at the crank. The only difference is taking out the friction loss variable of the drivetrain. In order to produce the WHP of 150 through a manual, you must flow enough nitrous to produce approximately 175 bhp worth of it. Simply put, our 'X' competitor just flows more nitrous initially fooling the average person into thinking that their systems are more efficient when they are not. I could easily claim that WoN can produce a 150 whp shot, when the theoretical value is 175 bhp. It's all psychological nonsense!


So yea, I'm hoping for a adding 170 WHP to my stock engined Musty. The power levels pretty much put it close but not dangerously close to the power limit. However, my engine is pretty seasoned and it is possible that it's age could promote conrod twist and aggravate any micro cracks if used too often. A lower torque level around 380 wheel torque would be a better choice for performance over a long life. Just something to think about when trying to push the limits of an aged engine that normally would hold a 450-500 wheel torque limit before failure when new.

very interesting read

I had heard some talk of the nitrous shortage on an American nitrous page im a member of on face book, if i remember correctly a large plant went up in flames.

Yes, it did. I've never heard of such a thing before and it just HAD to happen in my neck of the woods! ARGH!!!

After much consideration, I've decided to go in a different direction with the Musty. For the time being, it will remain as is with a single point injector setup. More information to come about this. Currently, I am awaiting the arrival of hurricane Irma, which left me a lot of time to shop.

Good Luck hope youre not to badly affected

good luck with Hurricane Irma, been a lot of coverage about it on the news over here...

All is well on my end: it's as if it never happened

phew thats good news

Well, I did gather some goodies for the Musty. The problem now is that the time and cost to complete "the swap" is going to be very high and that makes things difficult. So I will stick to a good old 12 second recipe that only requires tires, some suspension, and 100-125 jetting on the WoN system. I sorted out my Maxy issues that prevented me from using the window function (both my fault and vital info left out from the instructions).

So now that it works, I can go more "balls to the wall" without worrying about missing a gear and hitting the fuel cut on the gas.

I still haven't sourced any gas yet, but I am going to start hunting some down quite soon.

If I can get the car in decent shape, I will start going to the strip to practice and get used to the car as-is. It has some rotten suspension that will no doubt be a problem so that needs attention as well. The back end feels like it wants to go anything but straight and the front steering is sloppy: it makes for a tough car to keep in a straight line!

The recipe should work out to 12.7-12.4 @ 104-107 mph with good driving (none of which I have BTW) and 370 bhp and 440 lbft trq estimated. For any US guys and gals that's CRANK power.

I find it amusing when I see ridiculous debates about wheel power vs crank power.

Due to recent events, the musty is now my daily driver. It is a total mess in regards to upkeep, mainly, it needs a lot of suspension maintenance and fresh tyres.

The nos system is set for 100 bhp and only used for demo purposes on the rare occasion: one must spread the word of WoN whenever possible.

The only real change is that the huge propane tank has been removed and a standard nos cylinder in its place holding 5.5 lbs of propane (WoN cyl) to 10 lbs of nitrous oxide (US cyl). The change has given me back my space for the spare and any boot storage.

I'm finally making some forward progress with this project. The propane works SO well that I can never go back to tapping off an existing fuel system, unless I absolutely have to.

I dropped to the 50 jets to test the N/F ratios and make sure this oldie engine is still up to the task of making some power: namely, the ignition system. The coils on the car appear original, yet they haven't a problem firing off 50 or even when I tested 75 jets on regular petrol, so that is a good sign.

I ramped up a little to 80 jets to further verify performance and also test against the different temps here in south east USA. Mind you, the 50 jets felt great because it's often a complaint that 50 shots make little to no power on these with other junko kits: not with WoN. The power is definitely increased and it will be more so with the 80's and 100's.

One other advantage to my setup is the temperature variations. With traditional tapping of a regulated fuel system, the fuel flow stays the same regardless of the temps, and therefore, the nitrous flow. This results in either too rich or too lean a hit when temps are excessively outside the normal range, requiring a jet adjustment. Most users won't be experienced enough to know what jet size to use off hand, so they'll either A) complain that nitrous sucks because they have to babysit the bottle pressures, B) complain that they spent big bucks on a bottle warmer, or C) blow the engine because they weren't mindful of the bottle pressures and a race just popped up and they went for it.

With the prop, the fuel flow tends to follow the nitrous flow (up to a point) so that if the temps are too low, the N/F ratio will be slightly richer but not too rich to totally kill power; it just won't feel like nothing is happening like in regulated fuel systems. Vice versa, on a hot day, the ratio won't be overly lean, and if jetted correctly at the start, will be much closer to optimum while also increasing the overall power from a given jet setting. Power jumps big time because the N flow goes up for the jet size AND the N/F ratio leans out also compounding power.

Example: a standard day yields an 11.5:1 A/F ratio for 100 bhp. The same jet combo on a hot day would yield enough flow for 110 bhp and lean out to 12:1 A/F also increasing the results from the 110 bhp increase. Surely, a better route than having a nasty 13+:1 ratio because the fuel flow hasn't changed and bottle pressure is over 1200 psi!

Also note that the flow rates won't follow perfectly with wild temp swings, so it is important to know the RANGE where it would be necessary to make jet adjustments to the setup. So if it's just too cold, then adjustments to both the N and F are required and vice versa in very very hot conditions. The octane will luckily be more forgiving with the LPG.

Couple the above with the fact that other engines (even boosted ones) LOSE performance on a hot day, where the cold cold nitrous engine would null out that hot air. Tires will also be nice, hot, and grippy for great take offs, whereas in cold weather, engines make great power but the tires just skid from lack of grip.

The low cost, purity, and high octane (100+) of LPG are also much better than petrol fuels here. No need for complicated setups involving pumps, piping, switches, sensors, etc. This also means NO timing adjustments, considerations for compression ratio, or dickery with ECU mapping and logic! As far as the ECU is concerned, nothing is out of the ordinary! Some modern ECU's may still detect the torque increase so in that case it may need the remapping.

80 jets are a success... time to step up to the 100's.

I expected the NF to be closer to optimum but the WoN cylinder tends to be warmer than the US cylinder. That is a good thing for me as it keeps the ratio on the safe side.

If all goes well with the 100 jets, then I may go to the 125 hit. There won't be any problems with fuel drop out on propane so I'm confident that the swoops nature of the plenum won't be a factor at that level.